Author Topic: Help for people buying the "12-48 Volt 1800/2500 Watt ZVS induction Heater"  (Read 20646 times)

Offline hightemp1

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 Congrats on the successful melt!  I saw another individual on YouTube melt about 1.5 pounds in approximately 20 minutes using 1600 watts and a similar setup.  He gives little if any info so not sure about any details of his test.  That is about the same time it takes me to melt same amount using my small DIY gas fired foundry furnace.  Do you think your melt times would be similar if you did 1.5 pounds?  If you can poor 1/2 pound of copper after 7 minutes and if melting charge time is proportional then about 20 minutes would be a good estimate?   Thank you for all the info you have put out there.  Good to know that the scientific method still exists - great stuff.

Just had another thought.  The 2500 watt units are so cheap now maybe we could buy two, then rearrange the coils on each such that they both wrap around one crucible thereby theoretically doubling the power- your thoughts?  Not an engineer, more of a DIY idea-type guy.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 09:50:35 PM by Mads Barnkob »

Offline petespaco

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Re: "---time to melt 1.5 pounds of copper----in 20 minutes?---":
I don't know for sure, but I think it would not take the whole 20 minutes because part of the time is taken up by heating the crucible itself.  But I don't know exactly how it would go, since 1.5 pounds of molten copper  would pretty much fill that crucible right to the top.  As you can see, I filled the crucible as full as I could get it and it melted down to only about 1/3 the depth of the crucible.  That means that I'd have to continually add bits of copper as it melts.  That could make things worse because I'd be uncovering the crucible more often, but it might be better because the unmelted bits of copper might keep the current up a but higher.

Re: doubling the 2500 watt heaters:
I have been asked that question before.  Personally, I don't think it would work.  I'd be afraid that the magnetic fields would interact in a bad way.  But, maybe they would sync up together?
One other issue is that you would still have to obtain an additional power supply, cooling system, etc..

I hope that some of the smart HV/Tesla guys on this forum will comment on this.

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Mads-  You mentioned that you will soon "package" your induction heater.  I will be looking forward to the method you use.
Just recently, I see that the Chinese seem to be stepping up their game with the 1000, 1800 and 2500 watt ZVS induction heaters:
https://www.ebay.com/i/163558914286?rt=nc&var=462944781862&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D521ef284b2c7416bb345b6aa93d150c5%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D19%26sd%3D163558914286%26itm%3D462944781862

They appear to be simply packaging the parts into a nice looking box, and maybe adding a DC SSR?

The price of these units is about half the price (or more in some cases) of the LH-15A  7.5 KW Induction heater that is being sold by many vendors:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15KW-30-100-KHz-High-Frequency-Induction-Heater-Furnace-LH-15A-110-V/182826308639?epid=17031092066&hash=item2a914c141f:g:nYUAAOSw9TdZ4A~z
By the way, this one is the lowest priced unit I have seen.  There is one caveat----  you need a TIG welder type of water cooler for it.

I will reuse a old cabinet and other stuff I already got in my workshop, I will see what I can house it in, without buying any new parts, recycling for the future!

That is indeed getting cheap for boxed heaters with warranty, it is almost like they want everyone to own one :)

Just had another thought.  The 2500 watt units are so cheap now maybe we could buy two, then rearrange the coils on each such that they both wrap around one crucible thereby theoretically doubling the power- your thoughts?  Not an engineer, more of a DIY idea-type guy.

The issues here would be proximity heating between the two coils, that they simple induction heat each-other and they would properly interact on each-other in a destructive way if they are out of phase from running different frequencies. I am not too sure on this, but I doubt it will end up well with so little control over the switching that we have in a Royer oscillator.
http://www.kaizerpowerelectronics.dk - Tesla coils, high voltage, pulse power, audio and general electronics

Offline hightemp1

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Do you think we will ever see them make a 4k bare bones unit?  I see they have a 6k unit in fancy box with overload, meters and pump (no power supply) for $900 shipped, but as far as I know no one has tested it yet.  maybe because it would overload many people's homes?

DIY version:

/>
I want that.  array of big caps may be a better method, though more expensive probably. 

this MIT EE student gives a bill of materials and an unreadable schematic for a 3k with some good tips:
https://www.instructables.com/id/30-kVA-Induction-Heater/
« Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 10:56:48 PM by hightemp1 »

Offline shortyg83

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Glad I found this post it has a lot of useful information.
I ordered the 2000W ZVS model. It should arrive today.
It has a built in display that will read voltages, temps etc. And says it has protection built into the unit.
I bought it was a power supply that works on 120v or 240v. I live in the USA so for 240V I will have to hook the power supply up via split voltage, which should be the same as single phase 240 in other countries.
I will report back with some results once I get some testing done.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ZVS-Induction-Heater-Heating-2000W-45A-Module-Power-Supply-3000W/273107970557?epid=11016480565&hash=item3f9680e9fd:g:A4MAAOSwG1Vb7Nvk

Offline petespaco

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Interesting 2000 watt ZVS induction heater module.
I see that "they" are producing many new variations lately.
It's nice that this one has the LCD readout for several variables.
"Protection" has to be a big plus.  It is great that the system can tell you which Mosfet has failed.
I am a bit surprised to see that it has only one fan and that the fan doesn't blow on the capacitors that are closest to the work coil.
I also note that the capacitors in the video linked on the item's "for sale" page are very different from the ones shown in the item link itself.
Lastly, I wonder why the bolt in the work coil didn't seem to glow during that 5 minute video.

Offline shortyg83

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I made a quick video just to see if it worked before the final setup.
It heated up a knife I am making from an old file in just a few seconds glowing red.
The video on the ebay listing is before they changed the device. The ones they are selling now look like the same from the ebay pictures and from the video I am linking.
I have no idea how the bolt didn't glow. I see in the sellers video the screen never reads more than 550Watts. It could be the bolt was too small or didn't contain the right metal content.
In my first test it got up to over 1400w pretty quickly and the metal was glowing. I will make more videos once I get everything in better posistion.

I will not that I need a bigger water container. Even in my quick video the water running through the coil got quite warm so I want to get a tank that holds at least 1 gallon of distilled water.


Offline petespaco

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Great first demo!

It sure did heat that blade!
Looks like you have a good start toward a nice enclosure.

  I use radiators with fans to keep the water cool.  We have a local on-line auction house that has various kinds of radiators from time to time so I get then pretty cheap.  An old automobile interior heater should do a good job.
I did some real basic calculations on water heating:
            
How much will the water heat up?            
assume an idle current of         6   amps
Assume half goes to the coil         3   amps and the other half goes to Mosfets, caps, etc.
   power supply volts      48   
      Watts   144   
   Btus @ 3.4/ watt      489.6   
            
            
One btu raises the temperature of one pound of water one degree F            
One gallon of water weighs ~         8   pounds
Temp F rise per hour, degrees:         61.2   with NO load.  (No heat loss to the surrounding area)

The current distribution is just a guess, but just to have some idea.
You probably know this, but it is important that your cooling water goes INTO the bottom of the coil and comes out the top.
I have boiled water more that once by getting this wrong!

Pleae let me know if I got the calcs.  wrong.

Offline shortyg83

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Great first demo!

It sure did heat that blade!
Looks like you have a good start toward a nice enclosure.

  I use radiators with fans to keep the water cool.  We have a local on-line auction house that has various kinds of radiators from time to time so I get then pretty cheap.  An old automobile interior heater should do a good job.
I did some real basic calculations on water heating:
            
How much will the water heat up?            
assume an idle current of         6   amps
Assume half goes to the coil         3   amps and the other half goes to Mosfets, caps, etc.
   power supply volts      48   
      Watts   144   
   Btus @ 3.4/ watt      489.6   
            
            
One btu raises the temperature of one pound of water one degree F            
One gallon of water weighs ~         8   pounds
Temp F rise per hour, degrees:         61.2   with NO load.  (No heat loss to the surrounding area)

The current distribution is just a guess, but just to have some idea.
You probably know this, but it is important that your cooling water goes INTO the bottom of the coil and comes out the top.
I have boiled water more that once by getting this wrong!

Pleae let me know if I got the calcs.  wrong.

Just out of curiosity how would the direction of water flow through the coil change how well the water cools? Is it so any steam that may exist escapes upwards?

Offline Mads Barnkob

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I want that.  array of big caps may be a better method, though more expensive probably. 

I got some large induction heater caps for sale, real bargain to the size of them :)

https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=56.0
http://www.kaizerpowerelectronics.dk - Tesla coils, high voltage, pulse power, audio and general electronics

Offline petespaco

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Re:Just out of curiosity how would the direction of water flow through the coil change how well the water cools? Is it so any steam that may exist escapes upwards?
Answer: If the water flows into the top of the coil. it can simply run down to the bottom coil and out to the "drain" without filling the coils.   When I change coils, I have to get all the bubbles out.  This flow orientation also helps to get ALL the bobbles out of the system before I turn the power on.
I did this wrong on one of my earlier "1000 watt" videos and you could see steam and water jumping out of my radiator's expansion tube. 
The MAIN idea is to eliminate the possibility of any steam forming in the first place due to an incompletely filled coil.

Mads:  Please remind  about the specs and prices for your capacitors----

Offline DICKEYBIRD

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Great info, thanks all!  Never even considered the water direction issue; thanks Pete.  Due to enclosure space issues, I'm using a 1 qt. distilled water tank for the aluminum auto heater core fitted with 2, 12V muffin fans and a water pump.  I'm hoping that will be enough but if it isn't, I'll add an additional external 1 gallon tank.

I'm using this cool little thermostat to read coolant temp & switch on the fans when needed: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019I3YCFS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 This speed control for the pump: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007TH4EN6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 and this "wattmeter" to monitor power: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753DPC2D/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Milton from Tennessee ya'll

Offline badpeter

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^wow so much activity here!
Well, I managed to melt my first copper! so yay...
I rebuilt the PS with a powerful fan underneath, using the original box. It looks very neat.
But most importantly, insulation does miracles.

The data is the following:
845 g of copper melt in a graphite crucible (so-called "3kg-crucible" on ebay)
in about an hour with an output of just under 1kW.

the question is, how do I draw more power? I cant make the coil any smaller because of crucible+insulation being quite thick. I can have more turns. I was thinking, what if I do TWO coils, meshed together (not touching), turned the same direction.
Would that double the drawn power(some sort of principle of superposition)?

I plan to make aluminium bronze and cast a nice golden-looking dagger=)

Here are some pics:   

Offline shortyg83

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So for some reason certain types of metal appear to be causing the induction heater to draw to much power and go into a protect mode. It is a 2000w heater but I am using a 3000W power supply and I was assuming it would only draw up to 2000W. But I put a piece of 440C bar stock in and if I move the bar through the coil at a certain speed where say length that is currently in the coil hasn't been heated at all yet the heater starts drawing 2200 then 2300 Watts and ends up going into protect somewhere just over 2300W. If I move the bar stock through slowly where it has time to heat smaller sections at a time it works fine.

Is there anyway for me to limit the power from my power supply where it can only goto say 2200 or so watts? It currently outputs 53.5V at 56.1 A DC.

The heater is 24v-65V with a max Current of 48Amps. I don't think these heaters like being run below 48V though.

Offline petespaco

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badpeter:
  You need thinner insulation so you can make a coil the more closely fits the crucible.
Like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/INSWOOL-2300-PAPER-Flexible-Refractory-Paper-1-8-x-50-partial-rolls-also/131815404577?hash=item1eb0cf7421:m:m03iqra7mYUl9GLx0gPJ9rA
 what is your Idle current with that coil?  I see that the turns are pretty far apart.  That should reduce its inductance and make it run at  a higher frequency which may not be helpful, since you are primarily heating graphite, not copper.   You may also have a higher idle current so the net current for power transfer to the load will be less.
It appears that you are only heating about half the crucible.  That can't be helpful, can it?   Why use a 3 kg crucible and not a one or two kg crucible? Or get one that is already insulated with a hard ceramic shell such as the one you have seen my use.

I think everyone who get serious about this stuff should invest in an LC meter like this one which costs USD$10.00:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Digital-LCD-Capacitance-meter-inductance-table-TESTER-LC-Meter-Frequency-1pF-100mF-1uH-100H-LC100-A/32829243371.html
Then you can make coils and be able to predict how well they will work, while not overtaxing your heater.

Offline petespaco

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shortyg83:
"for some reason---":  The reason is that various alloys suck up more power than other do.  Shapes that fit the work coil more closely also tend to soak up more power.  That's usually a good thing-----  more power transfer!
  No individual coil works for everything.  If you are serious about these devices, you will have to learn how to make coils to match the work.  Many of my earlier videos show these effects.
  Usually, ferrous metals (those containing iron) soak up more power than do non-ferrous metals.  That is true up to the point where they start to glow a medium red color, where, by the way, they also become non-magnetic.  This is called the "transformation temperature" or "Curie Point".  At that temperature, one of the major factors that makes them heat, goes away.  That's due to the cessation of hysteresis as the magnetic property diminishes.  You saw that effect as you moved the stainless steel piece through the work coil.  (440C contains approx.  82% iron and the rest is alloys).

Link to youtube channel videos for the 1000 watt heater which has several relevant videos:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLVxWen9M87dBhvInCQ-3pELWdxCM3XH4I

Pete Stanaitis
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Offline hightemp1

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Would insulation on the outside of coil rather than inside be better?

Offline badpeter

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Peterspaco:
I might try the thinner insulation, but the one I have is quite amazing. May be losing some efficiency with a thinner one.
Idle current: looks like i forgot to record it with the latest setup. will have to get back with that.
Crucible wrapping is one thing i didnt think of. Will try that next!
I hope to cast bigger things so even a 3kg crucible is too small. I made a whole sword with aluminium when I ran my propane mini kiln!

 

Offline badpeter

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hightemp:
If insulation is outside then water will definitely boil in the coil not to mention that the water be stealing a lot of useful heat away. The previous setup with bricks was somewhat like that, before I had the fiber insulation

Offline shortyg83

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hightemp:
If insulation is outside then water will definitely boil in the coil not to mention that the water be stealing a lot of useful heat away. The previous setup with bricks was somewhat like that, before I had the fiber insulation

They make crucibles that come with ceremic sleeve insulation so you don't have to use all that. You can probably find one to fit your coil.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Induction-Melting-Furnace-Graphite-Crucible-with-Ceramic-Shield/273657494243?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&fbclid=IwAR0jaVvHhOtCpPofcWgwc7rDLkak0ZXkLETXEp42kzXw-Gjk7o_rHoHgLv4

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