Author Topic: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?  (Read 1518 times)

Offline GKnapp

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DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« on: September 19, 2020, 01:41:14 PM »
Hello all,

Since I tidied up my drsstc, I think I inadvertently changed something, because now the OCD on my UD2.7 board kicks in on anything more than the lowest pulse widths. With an ultra low pulse width, low BPS has small sparks, and high BPS has great performance (~21-22 inch sparks from a 10.2 inch secondary).

My guess is that I've detuned the primary quite aggressively, maybe more like 20%+ or higher, which is why I'm getting good long streamers at high bps with the air ionized but poor performance at lower bps and tripping the ocd almost immediately.

I'm using a full bridge of FGA65N60smds, and have the ocd set to a little over 300 amps, but I want this coil to be reliable because replacing the igbts is obnoxiously difficult due to my poor planning.

Though I haven't yet built a musical interrupter, my ultimate goal is to play music. Is it better for me to keep the detuning as is, and just keep the pulse widths low, or to make the primary higher frequency, potentially sacrificing some performance for some leeway with the pulsewidth?

I've heard from others that tuning for music should be less agressive than tuning for large sparks, maybe more like 10-15% detuned rather than 20%, and also that longer pulsewidths sound better (but do limit higher frequency tone generation). What do you all think? since I'm using insulated wire in a helical form, it's not quite as easy as just tapping the primary differently unfortunately, so I'm curious for all of your opinions before I change something.

Pic of the mostly finished coil:


Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2020, 02:22:28 AM »
Yes, lower primary tuning is good for long sparks, but not for music.  At least that's true for my DRSSTC, and I expect for most others too.

I also have a fixed insulated primary.  Tuning is by adding or removing capacitor strings from MMC.  For music, 4% to 10% lower primary frequency works well (8.5% to 23% additional primary capacitance).  I'm still experimenting with long sparks, but around 20% to 25% lower frequency seems good (56% to 78% more primary capacitance relative to matched frequency).  Frequency is proportional to 1/sqrt(C), so 25% lower frequency is 75% of matched frequency, or 1/sqrt(1.78), 78% more capacitance.
David Knierim

Offline GKnapp

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2020, 02:02:34 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I'm only using one capacitor, not a mmc, so I think maybe what I'll try is making it so that it has two tap points--one for large sparks, and one for music, and see if there's a noticeable difference. Now i just need to actually find/build a musical interrupter... :)

For fun, here's a still from a badly shot video of it arcing to a bike at night:

Offline Uspring

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2020, 02:12:35 PM »
I'm somewhat surprised, that a high burst rate will avoid your OCD triggering. There is certainly an effect from heated air remaining between bursts, but I had thought, that this will flatten out at around 100 bps. What burst rates are you using?

Much lower tuning implies bad tuning at the beginning of the burst. So the primary current needs to ramp up longer to higher values, before the arc gets sizeable. Once the arc is large enough to lower the secondary resonance frequency, the coil gets into tune and that at a time, where power is needed. While this is good for big arcs, it requires longer bursts for the rampup of primary current. At high burst rates used for musical performances, burst length is usually shortened to avoid excessive duty cycles. Arcs will become meek under these circumstances. But you'll have a louder bass  8)


Offline GKnapp

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2020, 05:20:51 PM »
I think because my coupling is so high, I can get away with very short bursts... the arc in the picture is at a ~25us pulse width, which is the lowest that my interrupter can go. Anything above 35-ish trips the ocd. The highest bps my really basic interrupter will go to is around 250 bps. I'm using the example one in loneoceans' sstc guide with an attiny85.  When I arc directly to something, it intermittently flashes my ocd led (the green one in the picture)

For whatever reason, I think I must be getting a very strong effect from the heated/ionized air, in that sparks at low bps are less than half the size of sparks at higher bps, unless you can think of another explanation for this.

I'm a little tempted to just keep the aggressive detuning, and see what happens if I try a musical interrupter. The OCD seems to be competent at protecting my transistors for the moment, so I figure if I keep the pulse width very conservative, I should be okay. If it sounds terrible I can then back off the tuning.

And I would think that since I have such a low pulse width, I would never get near the danger zone of too high duty cycle, because if I (for example) wanted to keep the duty cycle to .1, a 25us pulse width would (if my math is right, which it might not be) not become more than 10% duty unless I was playing notes above 4000 hz, which is way higher a note than I would ever play...

Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2020, 06:45:24 AM »
Yes, I think high coupling helps.  And I too was surprised how much BPS matters when first trying my DRSSTC.

It might also be interesting to try slowly-increasing pulse width (a note that starts quiet and gets louder).  I was just experimenting with that tonight on my DRSSTC.  Allows me to de-tune more while still getting an arc to start.  That's the only way I can get to 25% de-tuning.  Not a huge effect, however, as 21% works without pulse-width ramps.  (That's for my coil.  Not going to be the same for everyone.)
David Knierim

Offline Uspring

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2020, 05:50:56 PM »
Quote
For whatever reason, I think I must be getting a very strong effect from the heated/ionized air, in that sparks at low bps are less than half the size of sparks at higher bps, unless you can think of another explanation for this.
A possible explanation is, that the hot air will lead to a somewhat earlier breakout and larger arc loading. That reduces primary current and prevents the OCD being triggered. So it is the probably a longer burst, that doubles your arc length.

25 or 35us bursts are quite short. An arc lives on energy due to the length of plasma that needs to be heated. A high coupling will efficiently transfer energy from the primary to the secondary, but if the burst is too short, you won't put much energy into the primary before that. Tuning the primary closer to the secondary will make arc loading reduce the primary current more effectively. That might avoid the OCD tripping.

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2020, 08:40:39 PM »
I was also surprised that my large DRSSTC liked being run at 200uS/500BPS, gave some insane sparks and the sound level / tone is just horrible!

It is in the last 30 seconds of this video.

/>
Sparks is shorter when playing MIDI, but that is properly more to do with actually MIDI note length/frequency than just a difference between MIDI and regular interrupter.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 04:17:01 PM by Mads Barnkob »
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Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 05:19:45 AM »
Impressive video!  What was the distance from break-out point to ladder?
David Knierim

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 08:55:27 AM »
Impressive video!  What was the distance from break-out point to ladder?

It was put out at 3 meter distance from break out point to top of ladder.
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Offline GKnapp

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2020, 02:06:04 PM »
Well those are some nice large sparks! How long a pulsewidth do you typically run that coil at if 100us is unusual?

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2020, 04:17:51 PM »
Well those are some nice large sparks! How long a pulsewidth do you typically run that coil at if 100us is unusual?

That was meant to be 200uS, edited my post now. It was more the high BPS that stands out in that video.
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Offline Zipdox

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2020, 04:32:53 PM »
Why do we even use pulse width in absolute time units instead of fractions or percentages?

Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2020, 11:06:04 PM »
Mads:  How much power were you drawing with a large coil at 10% duty cycle (200us * 500Hz)?  3m is impressive arc length.  (I tried moving a ground pole out to 3m for a recent test, but hit it only once.)  Do have a link pointing to design parameters for this coil?  Wasn't successful finding anything for your large DRSSTC with 10 minutes of searching, so decided to ask instead of continuing searching.
David Knierim

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2020, 06:42:46 PM »
Mads:  How much power were you drawing with a large coil at 10% duty cycle (200us * 500Hz)?  3m is impressive arc length.  (I tried moving a ground pole out to 3m for a recent test, but hit it only once.)  Do have a link pointing to design parameters for this coil?  Wasn't successful finding anything for your large DRSSTC with 10 minutes of searching, so decided to ask instead of continuing searching.

You could not find my website on google? I must work harder on SEO then!

I should just have read on my own website, luckily I have learned to write everything down, because I can not remember it :)

Quote
Fed with 3×400 VAC through a variac resulted in a 0.6 power factor. After roughly 8-10 test runs at up to 2 minutes, with peak power consumption hitting 14 kW at 500 BPS, 200uS, the total power consumption over all the tests was 0.281 kW/h, 0.331 kVAr/h and 0.438 kVA/h.

First video shows the coil running 120-500 BPS at somewhere around 200 uS on-time. Peak power consumption from the 3×400 VAC supply was around 14 kW. Sparks are 3 meters to ground and somewhat shorter to the ladder.

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Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2020, 09:20:32 PM »
Mads:  Thank you for the link.  My mistake was searching by your name rather than "Kaizer", and by "large DRSSTC" rather than "DRSSTC III".

Wow, that is a large coil.  14kW at 0.6 power factor is 23kVA, 34A for 3-phase 400V.  Must have been for short enough duration that the 16A breaker considered it inrush current.  (BTW, your web page also mentions "kW/h" and "kVA/h".  I presume you mean "kWh" and "kVAh", as it's kW for an hour, not kW per hour.)

In the videos, your arcs tend to go roughly the same direction.  Even when I have a breakout point off one side (and raised a bit), my arcs go in more random directions from the breakout point tip.  Is that a feature of your higher-impedance design?  My coil is considerably lower impedance, 32k-38k ohms secondary depend on amount of detuning.  Or, due to wind?
David Knierim

Offline Uspring

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2020, 07:07:29 PM »
One reason for more randomness in arc direction might be a lower burst rate. Sequential bursts like to follow the same path due to the heat and consequentially the thin air left over by the previous burst. Thin air lowers breakdown voltages and high burst rates reduce cooling off times.

Another source of randomness is arc growth speed. A rapidly growing arc has more voltage at its tip. The direction the arc will take depends on the availability of free electrons beyond the tip, which then cause avalanches extending the arc. Free electrons are quite scarce, since they like to attach themselves rapidly to oxygen molecules, which prevents them from being accelerated by the surrounding field. A high voltage arc tip can cause avalanches anywhere around the tip, while a lower voltage one only in the smaller region directly in front of it. Basically it means, that the faster growing arc has more choices in terms of direction. I assume, that daveknis coil might have a faster voltage ramp up than the one of Mads. The situation is in a way opposite to that of sword arc QCW coils, where we have slow and non random arc growth.

That can possibly be related to secondary impedance. A lower secondary impedance implies a higher Q, which means that the coil is more sensitive to detuning. The process of the arc pulling the secondary into tune with the primary happens faster and might cause a faster rising top load voltage. But secondary voltage rampup speed is also related to primary Z and coupling, so it is not easy to say anything definitive comparing the coils.

Offline davekni

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2020, 05:58:59 AM »
Back to the tuning question, I'm finally getting reasonably-frequent strikes to ground poles 3m away, but with tuning that hardly works at all for music.  Attempted some music last night with this tuning.  Primary frequency is set to about 78% of secondary.  OCD trips so often that only the lowest duty-cycle single-note songs play at all.  Music was marginal even with detuning half-way back to what I normally use for music.  I've posted more details of arc growth for this case in my DRSSTC thread here:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=798.msg9200;topicseen#new
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Offline GKnapp

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2020, 03:06:35 PM »
Davekni that's very interesting and good info.

I'm temporarily on vacation and somehow managed to kill half the full bridge of my coil before I left, so I've got a while before I'll be able to tune it for sparks or music. But based on your experience it does seem like you must have the resonance quite close together for music. I'm more and more liking the idea of making a new primary with different tap points, one only for the biggest sparks and another conservatively placed for reliable music.

Very cool pictures of your coil in the thread you posted.

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Re: DRSSTC Tuning for Music vs Big Sparks?
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2020, 03:06:35 PM »

 


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