Author Topic: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?  (Read 2664 times)

Offline SteveN87

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2020, 08:12:25 PM »
The ZVS is forward converter - actually a Baxendall converter. It doesn't rely on core saturation to commutate, so is actually a  good match for your transformer. A true flyback converter requires an air gap in the core to store energy. Non-gapped cores will quickly saturate when driven to any appreciable power with a true flyback driver like the one I use (peak current/constant off time). Examples of flyback transformers are LOPTs and automotive ignition coils - your transformer is not a flyback.

Those arcs are very impressive!

Offline Teravolt

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2020, 09:22:31 PM »
what is your supply voltage beacaus you have a lot of current but not very much voltage, maybe 5KV -10Kv. if that is a x-ray transformer it is capible of an arc 3x bigger or more. maby a igbt brick half bridge setup running off the mains will get you there

Offline johnf

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2020, 09:47:33 PM »
by golly
you will be the late Nielsquake if you start holding wires like that
one moments inattention and pick up the wrong wire and it will fatally bite you when the insulation punctures through

BE CAREFUL

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2020, 09:58:01 PM »
Yea so I am planning on upgrading the input side as the ZVS driver can only handle so much but I still don't know how to wire up the secondary coils together. Is this transformer able to output AC voltage at all or does it require for the voltage to be rectified and dumped into the capacitors. As it seems like there are 8 coils do these even work in phase? I drew up a crude diagram of how it's wired up so of anybody understands how I can connect all the coils together it would be greatly appreciated because I'm starting to feel bad I took it apart in the first place lol. It is awesome though, seeing how all the internals are engineered turns out to be way cooler than looking at voltage arcing   ;)
Well here goes my attempt at drawing how it's wired up
 
I'm sorry for my crappy drawing skills and complete lack of understanding circuits. Now all I want is just to be able to supply the high-frequency output directly without having the rectifiers at all. I do hope it's possible at all :,( All the coils only have 1 output so I don't have a clue how to connect them up

I think together with the pics I posted yesterday this paints a pretty clear picture of how it works. Now for me to understand it.. that's another thing as I've tried haha. Explains why I'm a chemist and not an electrician/physicist lol
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 10:24:17 PM by nielsquake »

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2020, 09:59:43 PM »
by golly
you will be the late Nielsquake if you start holding wires like that
one moments inattention and pick up the wrong wire and it will fatally bite you when the insulation punctures through

BE CAREFUL

Yep, noted and done! already using a chicken stick atm. I had myself isolated on a plastic chair so I was thinking about safety a little but it's better to be extra safe than sorry.

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2020, 04:59:39 PM »
Okay so I couldn't live with the fact I posted that crappy drawn circuit diagram so I spend an hour looking at the thing and meticulously mapping the wires and I think I was able to draw the full circuit now.





I hope this makes it easier to understand. It seems there are 2 full transformers on this single core that seem to have the bifillar primary coils in opposing directions. Now the winding direction of the secondary coils is a mystery to me and how to wire them up for AC output even more. Would it be possible to wire these 2 transformers together in series and drive them from both inputs at once for AC output? I think it's starting to make a bit more sense to me now how this thing works so that's good I suppose but I could be completely wrong...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 05:08:40 PM by nielsquake »

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #46 on: August 27, 2020, 08:23:35 PM »
It's not uncommon to have isolated secondary windings, individually rectified & then wired in series, as an alternative to voltage multiplication.
My high frequency Bennett XRT tanks each have about 6 secondaries contributing 1/6 of the 62.5 kV output voltage (per tank).

Here's a schematic I found for a previously-purchased XRT that never did me any good.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 08:34:53 PM by klugesmith »

Offline Teravolt

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2020, 09:36:33 PM »
it looks like you have 8 seconaries. each two have there own bridge rectifier. I assume that each winding is floating. if this is the case each set of secondaries and bridge should be treated as though they are a battery so you can set them in parallel or series them. if you series them the potensial will be the highest`and the hazard for arcing to other things like metal or you will go up. you won't be able to hold that yellow wire any more.

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2020, 11:30:35 PM »
it looks like you have 8 seconaries. each two have there own bridge rectifier. I assume that each winding is floating. if this is the case each set of secondaries and bridge should be treated as though they are a battery so you can set them in parallel or series them. if you series them the potential will be the highest`and the hazard for arcing to other things like metal or you will go up. you won't be able to hold that yellow wire any more.

So when you say I can interpret the set of secondaries and the bridge rectifier as a battery, does that mean that for this transformer to be able to output anything in series requires the rectifiers? I wanted to try and make a housing that holds only the transformer under oil so I can use it with AC output and externally connect rectifiers if I needed a DC output. I kind of really want to see what it would look like to power a plasma globe with the output of this thing running on the mains but that would need me to be able to connect the secondaries up in a way that allows me to get an AC output. I want to know if the oscillations in the magnetic flux are equal throughout the whole transformer core so that all the outputs can be connected and remain in phase with each other. I know that connecting the DC outputs would work but in the end I think the rectifiers are a bit too large to be able to find a good housing for it that can hold a vacuum and I really do like the idea of it being as small as possible and as versatile as possible.
I imagine that all the coils that have the output from the secondaries on the left are wound clockwise and all that output on the right are wound counterclockwise, would this mean that connecting all the outputs of one side together and the other side together would create an AC potential between the 2 sides or would any lag in the magnetic conversion due to their spacial separation cause problems in the output.


Also I've noticed that both the wires that I used to get an output from the transformer go into one side of it only. One of the wires runs through the middle of the primary coil and then connects to the end of it to complete the circuit. This leads me to believe that I was only running one side of the transformer and not the whole thing. The enclosure this transformer was sitting in originally had 4 separate HV output terminals (the standard federal xray wire connection things) and I think it was made to be able to work with 2 tubes. Now I think this maybe has something to do with fancy xray machines that want to have the longest possible work time so they use 2 tubes and rather than making an expensive system that can switch the HV output between the tubes that most likely would require a lot of moving parts, they just put 2 full transformers on the coil to be able to use them interchangeably and allow for the other tube to cool down. This way the switching could easliy be done with software and no moving parts. The primary coils are wounded in 2 different directions so that must mean that they can't be used together right? Wouldn't the magnetic fields cancel out like that and generate heat or some physycsy shit like that. There seems to be no connections at all in the middle of the coil so I think it's not 8 secondaries connected but 2x4 making it 2 sepperate transformers that can't run at the same time. I guess that's still handy for if I mess up and burn the windings.
Soooo, you you think it is possible to apply the battery idea to the unrectified secondary coils connecting the sides and using the potential between them like I described? Would suck if AC is not possible.
also, what do you think about my idea of the 2 separate transformers, took me a lot of thinking about this but that is the only conclusion I can get to honestly.

According to someone selling these exact HV tanks there are some physical switching components that keep the voltage from going into the other output and I don't think that if you only power one side of the transformer the secondaries from the other side would not create any potential difference but then again, I'm only describing things as I see them and I have no idea what I'm even talking about honestly.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2020, 11:38:57 PM by nielsquake »

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2020, 11:35:36 PM »
It's not uncommon to have isolated secondary windings, individually rectified & then wired in series, as an alternative to voltage multiplication.
My high frequency Bennett XRT tanks each have about 6 secondaries contributing 1/6 of the 62.5 kV output voltage (per tank).

Here's a schematic I found for a previously-purchased XRT that never did me any good.


Very interesting schematic, nice knowing this is not an uncommon thing and to know what purpose it serves

Offline nielsquake

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2020, 02:13:33 AM »
what is your supply voltage beacaus you have a lot of current but not very much voltage, maybe 5KV -10Kv. if that is a x-ray transformer it is capible of an arc 3x bigger or more. maby a igbt brick half bridge setup running off the mains will get you there
Oh BTW, if you look at some of the older vids I posted in this thread you can see the 3mm spark gap that prevents the spark from crossing, it only connects through the ionized plasma when I touch the 2 electrodes but when I disconnect the spark gap the capacitors would charge and arc at the 150kv rated voltage the transformer is capable off but this seemed to blow up my ZVS drivers. I think the actual voltage was around the 50kv mark judging from the length of the sparks I could get before blowing my mosfets but I guess that is no accurate representation of the actual generated voltage due to the capacitors.

Offline HighVoltageRulezz

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Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2020, 05:33:13 PM »
A quick word about safety:

I always take care the housing of my Xray tank is properly grounded and then I use the original HV wires- they have an outer (grounded) shield.. So if the insulation should arc through current will flow to ground and not to anything else...
One thing you might want to keep in mind with these cables though- when you have several meters the capacity of them is high enough to give you a nasty shock   ;D

Take care- these voltages with the currents you can easily achieve are no joke- they can kill you from a distance..

High Voltage Forum

Re: Is my xray transformer a ferrite core and how would I drive it?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2020, 05:33:13 PM »

 


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