Author Topic: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build  (Read 415 times)

Offline ZakW

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QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« on: July 06, 2024, 01:55:14 AM »
Hello,

Creating this thread to chronicle my QCWDRSSTC project!

Currently, I am working on copying and recreating a lot of loneoceans' designs (credit goes to him!). Also, shout out to @Magneticitist on YouTube for documenting his builds so far; they have all been really helpful.

BrickDriver v1.1 schematic https://www.loneoceans.com/labs/sales/brickdriver/SchematicBrickDriver11.png
Loneoceans write up on the BrickDriver https://www.loneoceans.com/labs/sales/brickdriver/index.htm
HCPL-316J (2.5 Amp Gate Drive Optocoupler) Datasheet https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/678/av02-0717en_ds_hcpl-316j_2015-03-09-1827931.pdf



Like I said, I am creating my own schematics and PCBs. It would be great to get some feedback to ensure I understand everything correctly.

First up is the buck modulator schematic. I have opted to simplify the original design (BrickDriver v1.1) a bit and decided not to use the DESAT and FAULT capabilities of the HCPL-316J for this first build. I know they are valuable, but I am just trying to wrap my head around all of this at first. Referencing the datasheet, I think I have wired the HCPL-316J correctly to disable those two functions:



Schematic concerns:

If I understood the datasheet correctly, that should be all that is need to allow the IC to function without shutting down due to DESAT or FAULT conditions.

The initial PCB layout is almost finalized, just waiting to receive more parts to make sure everything fits nicely.

In the meantime I have also been working on a new secondary, topload, and MMC. I still need to coat the secondary and 3D print the primary coil form. I will likely copy a similar design to loneoceans 1.5 build since the coil is 2.5inches tall and needs some clearance from the topload.


-Zak


Offline Simranjit

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2024, 02:20:14 AM »
May I ask what is material for toroid core you used in buck modulator?

Offline ZakW

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2024, 02:37:16 AM »
Quote
May I ask what is material for toroid core you used in buck modulator?

I had my eye on the same one you mentioned in your post https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/magnetics-a-division-of-spang-co/0079908A7/18626744. I was hoping to see a reply to your post to help me figure out if it would work or not.


Offline davekni

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2024, 04:09:50 AM »
There's no way to know if this is a "good" core or not without knowing the rest of your buck design.  The most important factors are maximum ramp current (peak buck output current), buck switching frequency, and buck input voltage.  Inductor needs to handle maximum ramp current plus peak buck ripple current.  Ripple current depends on inductance, frequency, and voltage.
David Knierim

Offline Simranjit

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2024, 04:53:56 AM »
There's no way to know if this is a "good" core or not without knowing the rest of your buck design.  The most important factors are maximum ramp current (peak buck output current), buck switching frequency, and buck input voltage.  Inductor needs to handle maximum ramp current plus peak buck ripple current.  Ripple current depends on inductance, frequency, and voltage.
Thank you for clarification. It will get back to you in few weeks hopefully ☺️. Still trying to learn.

Offline ZakW

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2024, 12:44:53 AM »
Dave,

I am planning to copy Loneoceans QCW 1 pretty closely. For the buck modulator I am going to use two FGA40N65SMD in parallel https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/308/1/FGA40N65SMD_D-2313142.pdf. 650v 120A peak.

Parameters:
Buck smoothing capacitor: 500V, 25µF
Frequency: 30 kHz
Peak Current: 150 A (100A normal)
Peak Voltage: 340 V (300V normal)
Pulse Duration: 20ms MAX
Target Inductance: 112.4uH
Saturation Flux Density: 1 T (using 2 stacked Magnetics 0079908A7 cores)
https://www.mag-inc.com/Media/Magnetics/Datasheets/0079908A7.pdf

For these calculations I used online calculators as well as ChatGPT... Not trusting ChatGPT I checked its math with calculators and it seemed to be accurate. However, there was a large discrepancy with max flux density calculation. I included what ChatGPT said and how its calculation varied from what the calculator was doing.

Given that either calculation is below 1T, that means that I should be fine to use two stacked 0079908A7 cores, right?


Picture looks blurry, just have to right-click and open in a new tab.


« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 12:46:26 AM by ZakW »

Offline Anders Mikkelsen

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2024, 02:52:19 PM »
Try to figure out how to do the calculations yourself, this will give you a useful skill and is more likely to give a correct result.

For powder cores, talking about saturation flux density is a bit vague, since these materials saturate very gradually, over a range of currents. So the flux density you design with depends on how much inductance you can afford to lose at the operating current. This involves some design tradeoffs, since the ripple current and buck transistor turn-off losses will increase as the inductance drops, but there's otherwise nothing wrong with running the inductors well into the saturation region. I've done designs where there's less than 20 % of initial inductance at some operating points.

My recommended method is to look at the curves in the core datasheet, permeability vs ampere turns. Simply multiply your turns count by your operating current, and you can read out how much inductance you have left. For the core you proposed, 39 turns and 150 A  would give you around 14 nH/n^2 per core, giving a total inductance of 42 µH remaining at this current.

I'd recommend going with a material with better bias characteristics and higher initial permeability, maybe XFlux 40 or 60, but your proposed solution should work as it is. I would for example consider 25 turns on a 00X6527E040 core pair. This would give you 143 µH at zero bias down to 47 µH at 150 A. Overall cost would be lower, and you would also likely get a lower overall DC resistance.

The HCPL-316J is not ideal for the buck gate drive, since it has mediocre common-mode transient immunity (15 V/ns can be problematic with modern IGBTs) and is pretty expensive to boot.  If you don't need the desaturation detection, I would look at parts like UCC5390 or UCC25313.




Offline ZakW

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2024, 09:39:07 PM »
Hello Anders,

Thanks for the feedback and input!

Quote
Try to figure out how to do the calculations yourself, this will give you a useful skill and is more likely to give a correct result.
That's the goal :)

Quote
My recommended method is to look at the curves in the core datasheet, permeability vs ampere turns. Simply multiply your turns count by your operating current, and you can read out how much inductance you have left. For the core you proposed, 39 turns and 150 A  would give you around 14 nH/n^2 per core, giving a total inductance of 42 µH remaining at this current.
Quote
I'd recommend going with a material with better bias characteristics and higher initial permeability, maybe XFlux 40 or 60, but your proposed solution should work as it is. I would for example consider 25 turns on a 00X6527E040 core pair. This would give you 143 µH at zero bias down to 47 µH at 150 A. Overall cost would be lower, and you would also likely get a lower overall DC resistance.

Thank you for detailed explanation. There is a lot I still don't understand and inductors are top on that list. This helped a lot though. I like the idea of using the core you suggested since it is not only cheaper but will be easier to wind. Here is what I gather from looking at the datasheet:



Walking through what you said to make sure I understand and so that I have it for reference: Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote
This would give you 143 µH at zero bias
Zero bias meaning no DC current is flowing, so if I measured it with an LCR meter at 25 turns it would read ~143uH.
Quote
down to 47 µH at 150 A.
When a DC current is applied (bias), the core's magnetic flux increases, which causes its permeability to decrease, leading to lower overall inductance. Hence the graph, which can tell you approximately how much more inductance the core has before saturating.
Quote
lower overall DC resistance
Given the core high permeability I can afford to wind fewer turns using thicker wire to achieve less resistance losses that I would otherwise have due to increase turns.


Quote
The HCPL-316J is not ideal for the buck gate drive, since it has mediocre common-mode transient immunity (15 V/ns can be problematic with modern IGBTs) and is pretty expensive to boot.  If you don't need the desaturation detection, I would look at parts like UCC5390 or UCC25313.
Thanks for sharing these! Not sure how I missed the UCC5390, cheaper and provides 10A gate drive.

Quote
mediocre common-mode transient immunity (15 V/ns can be problematic with modern IGBTs)
This is new to me as well. "15 V/ns means the driver can handle voltage changes of 15 volts per nanosecond without malfunctioning.. it can lead to erroneous switching or damage.".
Looking at the datasheet for the UCC5390ECDR https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/UCC5390ECDR?qs=BZBei1rCqCCYvNb%2F7TMRZA%3D%3D it looks like it has transient immunity of 100-120 V/ns.

Since it can source 10A, I don't think I will be needing the buffer stage, and I don't plan on driving huge bricks. This is also just the first version and I can always add it later if I need more drive current.

Here is my updated schematic:




-Zak

Offline Anders Mikkelsen

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2024, 12:49:48 AM »
Hello Anders,

Thanks for the feedback and input!

Quote
Try to figure out how to do the calculations yourself, this will give you a useful skill and is more likely to give a correct result.
That's the goal :)


It might have come across as a bit hars from my side, but seeing chatbots get things wrong and people trusting them just rubs me the wrong way. Glad to hear that you have the right motivations.

Quote
Quote
My recommended method is to look at the curves in the core datasheet, permeability vs ampere turns. Simply multiply your turns count by your operating current, and you can read out how much inductance you have left. For the core you proposed, 39 turns and 150 A  would give you around 14 nH/n^2 per core, giving a total inductance of 42 µH remaining at this current.
Quote
I'd recommend going with a material with better bias characteristics and higher initial permeability, maybe XFlux 40 or 60, but your proposed solution should work as it is. I would for example consider 25 turns on a 00X6527E040 core pair. This would give you 143 µH at zero bias down to 47 µH at 150 A. Overall cost would be lower, and you would also likely get a lower overall DC resistance.

Thank you for detailed explanation. There is a lot I still don't understand and inductors are top on that list. This helped a lot though. I like the idea of using the core you suggested since it is not only cheaper but will be easier to wind. Here is what I gather from looking at the datasheet:



Walking through what you said to make sure I understand and so that I have it for reference: Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote
This would give you 143 µH at zero bias
Zero bias meaning no DC current is flowing, so if I measured it with an LCR meter at 25 turns it would read ~143uH.
Quote
down to 47 µH at 150 A.
When a DC current is applied (bias), the core's magnetic flux increases, which causes its permeability to decrease, leading to lower overall inductance. Hence the graph, which can tell you approximately how much more inductance the core has before saturating.
Quote
lower overall DC resistance
Given the core high permeability I can afford to wind fewer turns using thicker wire to achieve less resistance losses that I would otherwise have due to increase turns.

Spot on.

Quote

Quote
The HCPL-316J is not ideal for the buck gate drive, since it has mediocre common-mode transient immunity (15 V/ns can be problematic with modern IGBTs) and is pretty expensive to boot.  If you don't need the desaturation detection, I would look at parts like UCC5390 or UCC25313.
Thanks for sharing these! Not sure how I missed the UCC5390, cheaper and provides 10A gate drive.

These chips are a game changer for gate drive. Full galvanic isolation, and better output drive capability and transient immunity than most gate drive transformer based options. I use them for both hard-switched converters, tesla coils and induction heater, without issues. There are also half bridge versions with overlap protection, automatic dead-time insertion and other fancy features.

Quote
Quote
mediocre common-mode transient immunity (15 V/ns can be problematic with modern IGBTs)
This is new to me as well. "15 V/ns means the driver can handle voltage changes of 15 volts per nanosecond without malfunctioning.. it can lead to erroneous switching or damage.".
Looking at the datasheet for the UCC5390ECDR https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/UCC5390ECDR?qs=BZBei1rCqCCYvNb%2F7TMRZA%3D%3D it looks like it has transient immunity of 100-120 V/ns.


Transient immunity is the rate of change of voltage across the device that it can tolerate without giving invalid output. For a high side driver, the gate driver sees large common mode transients during switching as the output is connected to the switching node while the driver input is referenced to power or signal ground. To a first approximation, the common mode dV/dt is simply the bus voltage divided by the turn-off and turn-off time. The IGBTs you mentioned switch in around 15 ns, so with a bus voltage of 400 V you get close to 30 V/ns. With superjunction MOSFETs and wide bandgap transistors like SiC, it's easy to exceed 50 V/ns.

In an asynchronous buck converter, unintended turn-on is not necessarily a disaster, but it can lead to some ugly glitches and additional losses. It's a lot worse if it happens in a half bridge where the opposite transistor might be on. I now always try to use parts with a minimum of 100 V/ns CMTI, and never had any problems since doing that, even with fast wide bandgap transistors.


Quote
Since it can source 10A, I don't think I will be needing the buffer stage, and I don't plan on driving huge bricks. This is also just the first version and I can always add it later if I need more drive current.

Here is my updated schematic:

[attachment=2,msg21708]


-Zak

It should be good enough here without an additional driver stage :)

Offline ZakW

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2024, 01:37:55 AM »
Quote
It might have come across as a bit hars from my side, but seeing chatbots get things wrong and people trusting them just rubs me the wrong way. Glad to hear that you have the right motivations.
No offense taken, you're correct though. I use ChatGPT as an enhanced search engine, never taking what it says as correct. It has been really helpful in providing more context into certain topics and has help me to understand a lot more. I was trying to do use its calculations and fact check them with online tools to see if the answers were close, as well as check with knowledgeable people here.

Quote
Transient immunity is the rate of change of voltage across the device that it can tolerate without giving invalid output. For a high side driver, the gate driver sees large common mode transients during switching as the output is connected to the switching node while the driver input is referenced to power or signal ground. To a first approximation, the common mode dV/dt is simply the bus voltage divided by the turn-off and turn-off time. The IGBTs you mentioned switch in around 15 ns, so with a bus voltage of 400 V you get close to 30 V/ns. With superjunction MOSFETs and wide bandgap transistors like SiC, it's easy to exceed 50 V/ns.

In an asynchronous buck converter, unintended turn-on is not necessarily a disaster, but it can lead to some ugly glitches and additional losses. It's a lot worse if it happens in a half bridge where the opposite transistor might be on. I now always try to use parts with a minimum of 100 V/ns CMTI, and never had any problems since doing that, even with fast wide bandgap transistors.
Awesome! That is good to know, I think I will start using these more often. That makes sense then why I see some coils that have unstable ramps, I wonder if it could be due to transient noise causing unintended turn-ons and glitches in the ramp output.

Quote
It should be good enough here without an additional driver stage :)
Excellent!

I ordered some fiber transmitters/recievers, fiber, and that core. Will have more updates to come.

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Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2024, 01:37:55 AM »

 


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post Re: Sling Psychrometer
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Twospoons
July 04, 2024, 11:02:32 PM
post Phase lead inductors
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
July 04, 2024, 06:28:08 PM
post Re: Sling Psychrometer
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 04, 2024, 12:31:40 AM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 04, 2024, 12:07:21 AM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 04, 2024, 12:06:17 AM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
July 03, 2024, 10:51:23 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
July 03, 2024, 09:44:14 PM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 03, 2024, 08:48:13 PM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Simranjit
July 03, 2024, 08:24:50 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 08:12:55 PM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 03, 2024, 07:29:53 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 03, 2024, 07:21:38 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
July 03, 2024, 05:05:39 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 04:29:53 PM
post Re: FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
July 03, 2024, 04:09:11 PM
post FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 02:47:18 PM
post Re: Eliminating discharges from a SSTC
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 01:35:24 PM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
July 03, 2024, 02:19:03 AM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
verliebt_in_neukölln17
July 03, 2024, 01:19:50 AM
post Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Simranjit
July 02, 2024, 11:29:18 PM
post Re: Is this a good pulse experiment capacitor?
[Capacitor Banks]
Mads Barnkob
July 02, 2024, 09:59:07 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
July 02, 2024, 09:55:53 PM
post Re: Capacitor wiring for single phase 240 to split phase (180 degree) 240v
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
July 02, 2024, 09:44:55 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 07:51:37 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
July 02, 2024, 06:14:07 PM
post Is this a good pulse experiment capacitor?
[Capacitor Banks]
FPS
July 02, 2024, 06:02:38 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 11:37:46 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:22:10 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:16:30 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
drobotk
July 01, 2024, 11:50:12 PM
post Re: Restoring a Rogowski coil calibrator
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:48:53 PM
post Uses for Weston's Little Bee probe
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:40:59 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:09:42 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
June 30, 2024, 06:49:45 AM

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