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Messages - davekni

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1
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: Idea for QCW DRSSTC
« on: September 23, 2021, 09:08:23 PM »
Quote
Power consumption in the primary tank is inversely proportional to Qpri.
That is true for a parallel-driven tank circuit.  Since DRSSTCs are series-driven, power is proportional to Q at resonance, not inversely.  Off-resonance, there will be a Q for maximum power, with lower power on either side.

Quote
On the UD3 one half of the bridge switches normally in zero crossing the other half is shifted from 0-180 deg. After each pulse the bridge switches to equalise thermal load. (Steve Ward design)
If I understand correctly, swapping is after each full cycle of primary current.  Every other cycle has reversed half-bridge drive.  To check my understanding, here's simulation output of primary current and H-bridge voltages near the start of a ramp (low net drive voltage):



Red is primary current, green is differential voltage across H-bridge, yellow and cyan are the two H-bridge outputs offset vertically to avoid overlap.

The circuit is just to generate waveforms, not anything real:



Each H-bridge transition occurs while driving current, avoiding diode recovery.  Half of the transitions are just before zero current for minimum loss.  The other half are at higher current, although still fairly low here since near the ramp start.

Is this what UD3 generates?  If not, can you please point me to UD3 waveforms?

2
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: Idea for QCW DRSSTC
« on: September 23, 2021, 05:46:38 PM »
Quote
On the UD3 one half of the bridge switches normally in zero crossing the other half is shifted from 0-180 deg. After each pulse the bridge switches to equalise thermal load. (Steve Ward design)
Thank you for the explanation.  That is the one version I'd seen so far, and what I'm planning to test first.
Anyone made a different version?

3
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: Idea for QCW DRSSTC
« on: September 23, 2021, 06:15:34 AM »
Quote
When you run, as proposed, a considerable amount above the upper pole, then primary current will be mostly limited by the reactive impedance of the primary tank and not by the added resistance. When this resistance increases, e.g. due to arc load, then primary current won't be much affected by it. But that implies more input power, since current stays the same and resistance increases. And more input power will increase arc load.
Yes, more arc load will increase power, but will decrease secondary voltage.  So I don't see any positive feedback occurring.

Quote
An interesting side effect of this procedure is, that the phase between primary current and voltage is not anymore 0 degrees as in ZCS operation of both of the bridge halves. Therefore the coil is not generally run at a pole frequency anymore. Optimum ramp shapes probably differ for different signs of the bridge shift phase.
I'm hoping phase-shift QCW builders will offer information on their builds.  Exactly what is being shifted in phase relative to what else?  I'm guessing that most designs will cause frequency shift as well.  The only way I'm thinking of to avoid frequency shift is to adjust effective H-bridge pulse width while keeping pulses centered at current peaks.  Pulse width would presumably be adjusted by relative phase of the two H-bridge halves.  That keeps 50% duty cycle on each half-bridge.
Do you expect any issuesd due to frequency shift due to phase shift?  Shift would be small initially when Q is high.

Quote
I wonder how sensitive sword arcs are to voltage ripples caused e.g. by cycle skipping. Steve Ward once showed me some data of his, where he started a QCW arc at 40kV and ended it at 55kV, when the arc had reached a length of 50+ inches. That amounted to a voltage rise of 15kV during about 5000 cycles. That is an increase of only 3 V per cycle. If this is really needed to keep an arc sword like, cycle skipping looks futile. Secondary Q is much too low to avoid a voltage drop even much larger than this.
Yes, that is what I plan to experiment with eventually.  Given that buck-converter driven coils usually have buck frequency well below coil frequency, buck ripple voltage likely makes not-quite-monotonic coil voltage ramps.

4
Quote
Doesn't a capacitor act as a differentiator.
A capacitor by itself has two equivalent properties.  Current is the derivative of voltage with time (times capacitance value), and voltage is the integral of current over time (divided by capacitance value).  Both are equally true, different ways to state the same fact.  This opamp circuit is an integrator.  Input voltage is converted to current by R3.  R3 current feeds C2.  C2 voltage (opamp output voltage) is the circuit output, the negative time integral of input voltage.  (This presumes input and output voltages are measured relative to VDD/2.)  If R3 and C2 were swapped, the circuit would become a differentiator (except fur opamp stability issues).

5
Quote
aka dV/ dt,
I think you are confusing differentiation (dV/dt) with integration, which is the opposite.

Quote
means that to keep the virtual ground at VDD/2, the output must become the integral of Voltage over time.
Yes, this part is correct.

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I'm guessing the actual integration function of the circuit is useless.
No, integration is the goal.  Current into a capacitor is also integrated.  Integrators are a type of low-pass filter with theoretically infinite DC gain and constant 90 degree phase shift.

For normal PLL use, a pure integrator would form an unstable loop.  It's 90 degree phase shift combined with 90 degrees of the VCO (phase is the integral of frequency) makes for 180 degrees total (0 degrees phase margin).  However, for Tesla coil use, a PLL is locking to a phase-shifted version of its own VCO output, not to an independent reference frequency.  That bypasses the 90 degrees of frequency-to-phase.

6
Quote
Further, by fine-tuning the phase shift using a circuit similar to Steve Wards linked here:
https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/CWcoil/PLLSchem.JPG
Yes, feedback delay is another way of adjusting phase lead.  Steve also has a switch to hold VCO frequency constant during interruption.

Was thinking more about phase comparitor 2 linearity.  Both phase comparitor 2 and phase adjustment can be made linear without using current sources, by using an opamp integrator instead of a plain R and C filter:



This keeps the integrator input voltage at VDD/2, so R3 and phase adjust R6 feed into a constant voltage.  Makes resistor currents constant without needing current sources.

Note that the opamp integrator is inverting.  To correct for this, the two phase comparitor input signals are swapped in the above schematic.

Of course, since you have something working now, no need to change anything.

Congratulations on success!

7
Yes, your reply #22 looks accurate.  A constant bias current would produce a constant phase offset.  This is true IF phase comparator 2 put out currents.  With a real 4046, phase comparator 2 currents depend on R3 and on VCO voltage, so phase shift will also depend on VCO voltage.

For me, it is easier to think of phase comparator 1 as putting out a voltage rather than current.  Unlike phase comparator 2, phase comparator 1 is never high-impedance.  Think of it as generating an average voltage using PWM.  Range is 0 to VDD for 0 to 180 degrees phase input.

Yes, a current source that handles 0 to VDD requires supply voltages beyond 0 and VDD.  You can get close with rail-to-rail opamps without additional supply voltages.  Look for app-notes and opamp datasheets with current-source examples.

8
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: Idea for QCW DRSSTC
« on: September 20, 2021, 12:53:39 AM »
Quote
Cycle skip modulation also mentioned by davekni sounds like the most elegant way to me, although I can imagine it might be somewhat challenging to implement too. That way you should be able to preserve soft-switching. That's what I might want to try if I were to build a Tesla coil now.
This thread discusses unsucessful attempts at pulse-skip QCW control:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=292.msg1862#msg1862

However, this link shows QCW coils modulated to play music:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=472.msg2879#msg2879

If sword sparks can be generated while modulating enough for music, it seems like pulse-skip modulation could be of the same order.  Perhaps the issue is near ramp beginning when most pulses are being skipped.  That is where I hope to experiment eventually.  Perhaps start with phase-shift initially, then use pulse-skip later in each ramp for efficiency.

Quote
I'm not sure if I follow.. You need the PLL to lock at the resonant frequency of the primary so that the ramp will be closer and closer to the resonant frequency.
QCW coils generally run at the upper pole of  the dual-resonant system, not at the primary resonance.  The goal of open-loop drive is to start slightly higher frequency than the upper pole.  Higher to avoid coupling too much energy initially.  Then ramp the frequency lower to increase energy coupling.  As the arc grows, the now-loaded upper pole frequency will drop too.  This provides some negative feedback for stability.  The arc can grow only to the extent that the drive frequency is ramping down to keep feeding increasing energy.

I'm adding open loop frequency control to the experiment list for my eventual QCW coil.  (Will be a while.  Hand injury last April has prevented most construction, and will for coming months as I recover from surgery.)  If I get initial success with conventional phase-shift ramping, I'll measure the resulting frequency ramp, then try duplicating that frequency ramp open-loop.

PS:  Found this link to "Simple Driver" documentation.  Appendix A describes the version where phase-shift is between the two H-bridge halves:
https://tqfp.org/simple-tesla/simpledriver-v23-in-english.html
Here one half of the H-bridge runs in normal ZCS mode and the other half shifts from 180 to 0 degrees (where 0 refers to normal H-bridge phasing) during the ramp.

Does anyone have a phase-shift QCW coil where the entire H-bridge phase is shifted relative to current (90 to 0 degrees)?

9
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: Idea for QCW DRSSTC
« on: September 19, 2021, 08:28:05 PM »
The only QCW coil I've made so far was my low-frequency experiment (100kHz) with a separate buck-converter stage.  I am planning a more conventional 350-450kHz QCW coil using phase shift with FPGA control (digital PLL).  Goal is to experiment with conventional phase-shift vs. pulse-skip (which is speculated to not work) and audio modulation.

However, I'm not entirely sure exactly what others mean by phase-shift when applied to QCW.  My plan is to shift relative phase of the two H-bridge halves, which becomes duty-cycle modulation to the primary.  That is my guess as to what others do too.  Perhaps instead some designs shift the entire H-bridge voltage phase relative to primary current, which results in a small frequency shift.

It is theoretically possible to ramp a QCW coil entirely with an appropriate open-loop frequency ramp.  Would be hard to get the ramp shape just right, but you may be able to get reasonable results.  That would be a fascinating experiment!  I love trying non-conventional approaches.  Many fail (like my low-frequency QCW), but trying leads to learning and sometimes invention.  If you proceed this way, I see no reason to lock first.  You want to start farther from resonance and ramp towards resonance.  You could use just the VCO and ignore both phase comparitors.  Or, you could switch in a phase comparitor near the end of the ramp to optimize final phase for max power.

The alternative that comes to mind is to use the 4046 as a PLL with a ramped current source added to the VCO pin to force a phase offset.  Likely best with phase comparitor 2 to allow 90-degree shift.  Of course, current source needs to ramp towards 0.  Adjusting initial current to get almost 90 degrees might be finicky.

Good luck!

PS:  Thinking more about open-loop frequency drive for a QCW coil.  Seems possible that it could provide better ramp control, causing the arc to grow based on arc loading.  Seems it should work best on a coil with high coupling and primary tuned below secondary, maximizing frequency shift with arc load.

10
Last time I used a 4046 was ~4 decades ago, so I don't have any circuits around to share.

Concerning why current is better for phase comparator 2:  Consider the nominal case when VCO is center-frequency (VCO input pin 9 at center between supply voltages).  Look at figure 5 of the Philips HEF4046B datasheet.  Phase comparator 2 output is mostly open (zero current).  At VCO output edges, it momentarily pulses high or low, causing a current of +-VDD/2/R3 to slightly charge or discharge low-pass filter capacitor C2.  The charge added to or subtracted from C2 is proportional to phase error (fixed current of +-VDD/2/R3 times varying pulse width based on phase error).

Instead of centered frequency, consider C2 at VDD/4.  Now phase comparator 2 output current is +3VDD/4/R3 or -VDD/4/R3.  PLL loop gain is now asymmetric, higher for increasing frequency and lower for decreasing frequency.  Switched current sources would fix this asymmetry, making PLL loop gain constant.

11
Quote
To me it logically makes sense that it would still work with biasing, and I confirmed that using a circuit simulator. The only thing I noticed was that the phase shift varied quite a bit depending on if the feedback frequency proportional voltage for the VCO was closer or further from the biasing voltage, as that would determine how much the biasing voltage would effect it the circuit, but still it works.
Yes, biasing phase comparator 2 does work.  I did that once decades ago, though not for a Tesla coil.  Ideal version would have phase comparator 2 output be + and - current sources rather than switches.  Then a DC current source would provide linear phase adjustment.  I did use a current source for biasing, even though 4046 phase comparator 2 output is not current source.

As the datasheet mentions, noise sensitivity is the primary disadvantage of phase comparator 2.  Input signal glitches count as valid edges, increasing input frequency.  I'd suggest a schmitt-trigger input buffer or inverter before the 4046.

12
Quote
The moment the streamer hit the secondary:
Wow, that must be so frustrating and disappointing!  The secondary strike initiation does make for a beautiful picture, though.  Thank you for sharing that.

13
Quote
It might not all be arc current melting the aluminum. Maybe a streamer hit to the frame might provide enough voltage to bridge the gap, then energy from the primary is inductively coupled into the arc? Just a guess. Although, the arcs definitely do have enough current to light my grass on fire!
That's definitely my guess too.  Frame sparks often continue after tho top arc leaves the frame in your videos.

Quote
I have not tried measuring. Doesn't seem like an easy task- any suggestions on how that might be possible?
Measuring current of the secondary coil ground connection will get rather close.  Once an arc strikes, top-load voltage drops way down, so secondary current at the bottom is close to matching arc current.  My DRSSTC has a current transformer measuring secondary current, which I scope every time I run my coil.

Not worth the bother, but you could make a large CT with U-cores to measure frame current around one of the 80/20 sections.  CT would need insulation cover to avoid strikes from secondary.

14
Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC) / Re: High power clean audio SSTC
« on: September 17, 2021, 05:49:54 AM »
Nice coil.

Quote
My goal is to draw as much power as an European 16A outlet can provide (>3.6kVA)
3.6kVA (220V *16A) is a great goal for long-term operation.  3.6kW at 3.6kVA requires 100% power factor.  You can get close to 100% by running 100Hz (no bulk cap) or by adding a PFC supply between line and bulk cap.

Or, you can get 3.6kW by drawing more than 16A RMS and hoping the breaker doesn't trip and that there are no overheating connections in your building wiring.  Common strategy for shorter runs.

15
Quote
But the problem is that the moment it strikes an arc to ground, the coil shuts down because the power supply shuts off (its a switch mode PSU I used for low power testing).
It may be electrical noise from the arc confusing the supply rather than overload.

16
Quick crude calculations indicate ferromagnetic material is not worth pursuing for anything above 100m/s or so.  I do have some simple single-stage solenoid launchers for foam darts with a bit of steel wire inside.  Made these long ago for science lessons.  Just enough velocity to get across the room.

17
Electronic Circuits / Re: Indukcion heter problem
« on: September 16, 2021, 06:09:24 AM »
I doubt the IRF460 change is the issue. Likely just need much higher bus voltage.  If that isn't enough. then a lower transformer turns ratio.

Issue of higher current when unloaded has no simple fix with this circuit.  Need to turn off before removing load.

18
The only experimental results I found in the links is 250m/s and below, less than what simple single-coil launchers achieve.  Any ideas for a simple practical design?  I wonder if ferromagnetic multi-stage launching would work better for hobby-level projects in spite of the ~2T field limit (linear version of a variable-reluctance motor).

19
Electronic Circuits / Re: Indukcion heter problem
« on: September 15, 2021, 05:33:37 AM »
Quote
If I put a lot of metal into the work coil, the consumption drops to 0.003A and the resonant frequency remains at 71 khz, while if the work coil is empty, it consumes 0.3A. Because of this, it hardly heats large amounts of metal.
I wonder if you are confusing resonant frequency with operating frequency.  Operating frequency of this circuit is set by the 20k potentiometer.  If you adjust the pot for 71kHz, it will stay at 71kHz.  When you add metal, the resonant frequency is likely changing.  Operating frequency will not change to the new resonant frequency until you adjust the potentiometer.  Adjust it to find the new resonant frequency.  Leave it at the loaded resonant frequency, and current will likely drop when metal is removed.

BTW, the ZVS parallel drive circuits in the thread I linked previously automatically run at resonant frequency.  They have no frequency adjustment potentiometer.

20
Electronic Circuits / Re: Indukcion heter problem
« on: September 12, 2021, 11:03:50 PM »
Quote
Why does the impedance decrease when I put something in the work coil
The impedance seen by the drive circuit is increasing, not decreasing.  Higher impedance draws less current at fixed drive voltage as you measured.

Quote
when it does not change the resonant frequency.
Already tried to answer this.  Not sure what more to say.

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Is there anything that can be done to reduce empty consumption?
That is a difficulty with series drive as in this design.  Requires more complex control circuitry or manual adjustment with a variac.  For loads of different shapes or materials that do happen to alter frequency, you could solve the empty power issue by tuning to the loaded frequency.

Parallel drive is much more common for DIY induction heaters, as in this long thread:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=530.0

If you do want to try electronic current control, a UD2.9 or similar skip-pulse DRSSTC driver could be made to work.  Would require changing to full H-bridge power stage rather than your existing half-bridge.

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