Author Topic: Problems with my simple DRSSTC  (Read 661 times)

Offline stoppi_physics

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Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« on: January 05, 2023, 04:10:35 PM »
Hello!

My name is Christoph (often called stoppi by friends) and I'm a teacher for mathematics and physics. At the moment I'm trying to run my simple DRSSTC.

It has a fullbridge with four HGTG20N60 IGBTs (40A/600V) and I run the tesla coil with a 10A-variac.

The driver is very simple and works with secondary feedback without over current protection.

The Gate-signals seem to be okay apart from the relativ slow edges (around 300 ns rise-time). For the interrupter I use the schematics from Steve Ward (https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/interrupter/intwbmsch.JPG)

At the moment I have the following problems:

If I operate the Tesla coil in normal interrupter mode, the current requirement is very low (0.7A at 55V, 70┬Ás on-time and 150 bps), but the volume is already very high. The flashes are very finely branched. If I increase the on-time further, the volume becomes unbearable even at low voltages of around 80V.

In burst mode I have different problems. Here I get relatively nice discharges, which in my opinion are atypical for a DRSSTC. They are more like a VTTC. Strangely enough, the volume is more tolerable in burst mode. Rather a dull hum and not the extremely loud single tone. The power requirement is enormous in burst mode. With low voltages on the full bridge of 30V, the current is already 10A and more and my 2000W Variac is already overloaded. I can't go any further with the tension here either.

I've reversed the feedback from the secondary coil, but then the Tesla coil doesn't work at all. The interrupter housing is grounded.

The frequency of my DRSSTC is around 300 kHz.

Since I'm absolutely not a Tesla professional, maybe one of you has a tip for me. I would just like to get the discharges typical of a DRSSTC, whereby 30-40 cm long flashes would be enough for me. It would also be nice if I could operate the Tesla coil directly at 230 Vac without a variable transformer. For this I would also throttle the Tesla coil and, for example, only use low on-times.


Thank you in advance for your efforts, best regards

« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 04:19:35 PM by stoppi_physics »

Offline GrantV

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2023, 06:32:35 PM »
Hi Stoppi, I do not have enough knowledge to answer your questions properly so am hoping the others will jump in and help :-)

This looks more like an interrupted SSTC than a DRSSTC to me? (which I have never played with ???)

The 'high tone' of your spark output is a combination of the fres of your secondary and the 150hz from your interrupter.

Considering that you are getting output from your coil at lower voltages and current, I would probably think that your coil coupling is way too tight. Have you tried a larger diameter primary form and/or moving the primary lower?

BTW: Congrats on your build  :)

Offline Mike

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2023, 03:50:14 AM »
It's normal for Tesla coil discharges to be very loud, I always wear earmuffs when using mine. Did you make any measurements of your primary and secondary resonant frequencies? Initially is start with the primary tuned just a few % lower han your secondary. You can increase the amount of detuning for better performance once you're happy that everything else is working properly.

As Grant mentioned you have high coupling with the primary wrapped right around the secondary. I'd recommend inputting all your dimensions into JavaTC to see where that lands you. Most DRSSTC are running with coupling between 0.1 to 0.2. This could also be helpful for estimating your resonant frequencies to see how far apart they are.

Mike

Offline davekni

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2023, 05:47:13 AM »
Quote
As Grant mentioned you have high coupling with the primary wrapped right around the secondary. I'd recommend inputting all your dimensions into JavaTC to see where that lands you. Most DRSSTC are running with coupling between 0.1 to 0.2. This could also be helpful for estimating your resonant frequencies to see how far apart they are.
Yes, I too recommend JavaTC.  However, I suspect coupling isn't that high as-is.  Looks like only three primary turns closely spaced at bottom of coil form, which isn't likely to couple too strongly.  JavaTC will estimate (reasonably accurately) the coupling factor along with resonant frequencies.

Quote
The driver is very simple and works with secondary feedback without over current protection.
This is the first example I've seen of a DRSSTC using secondary feedback.  Not surprising that performance is unique.  Without running JavaTC myself on your coil, I'd guess primary frequency is a bit above your 310kHz operating frequency.  If so, that would keep IGBTs running with phase lead (switching before primary current zero-crossing), which may explain in-part why your IGBTs haven't died yet.

Secondary feedback may also explain why you are getting away without overcurrent protection.  At secondary frequency, arc loading will provide damping.  As arcs get longer causing secondary frequency to drop, primary is farther out-of-tune with operating frequency, so primary current doesn't increase arbitrarily high as happens with primary feedback.

Would be interesting to see primary current and voltage waveforms during operation!  Not so easy unless you have an isolated supply for H-bridge or a differential scope probe.

Quote
I would just like to get the discharges typical of a DRSSTC, whereby 30-40 cm long flashes would be enough for me. It would also be nice if I could operate the Tesla coil directly at 230 Vac without a variable transformer. For this I would also throttle the Tesla coil and, for example, only use low on-times.
Not sure how to achieve normal DRSSTC performance without a normal DRSSTC circuit.  That would be primary feedback and current limit.  Most DRSSTC drivers also include phase lead to keep IGBTs switching slightly before current zero-crossing.  Some small coils omit phase lead.  Without phase lead, IGBT stress is higher and switching spikes higher, so require more margin between bus voltage and IGBT voltage capability.  (TVS diodes across IGBT C-E can be worse than none.  IGBTs often have higher avalanche energy capability than the TVS diodes.  If a TVS diodes fries, that can fry other IGBTs.  Gate-emitter TVS diodes are a good idea.)

Quote
The Gate-signals seem to be okay apart from the relativ slow edges (around 300 ns rise-time).
Since you do not have diodes across gate resistors to provide dead-time, slow edges are necessary.  Your 300ns edges are about right for providing needed dead-time for your IGBTs.

BTW, have you checked temperature of your UCC driver chips?  Especially when running continuous mode (not interrupted), I'd suspect they may run very hot.  Unusual to drive four IGBTs directly from such driver chips, especially with the 1:2 GDT ratio.

Hope your project goes well!  Feel free to ask followup questions here on the forum.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 05:51:55 AM by davekni »
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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2023, 05:54:20 AM »
 Antenna and secondary feedback was how it was done 10+ years ago  ;)
SGTC / SSTC / DR-SSTC / QCW

Offline stoppi_physics

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2023, 12:37:08 PM »
Thank's a lot to everyone for your comments and support, I much appreciate it...

Yes, the design of my DRSSTC is very old school. This is because I made a 10 year break to test it...  8)

If I'm right I shouldn't use diodes across the gate-resistors?

I have done measurements concerning the primary and secondary feedback but I will do it once again. For the secondary coil I got a resonance frequency around 312 kHz. The primary capacitor has 220/3 = 73 nF and I use 3-5 turns for the primary coil.

I have noticed that my on-time was way too high in burst mode. This was the reason for the extremely high current (more than 10A at just 20V). Now the current is lower (3-4A at 40V from the variac). This still seems too high for me...

Today I replaced the 27V zener diodes against 24V and also changed the GDT. Now 15 turns secondary side instead of the 17 turns before. I hoped to decrease the rise time of the edges. But they are still in the 300 ns range. But as you mentioned this could be positive and the reason, why my IGBTs are still alive  ;D

My coupling seems way too high, around 30%. This is because the diameter of the secondary coil is 11 cm and the diameter of the primary just 13 cm. Should I switch to a horizontal primary coil?

And I have forgotten to mention that I use MUR460 and 440V TVS-diodes across each EC-path of the IGBTs.

Thank's once again for your support  :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 12:47:38 PM by stoppi_physics »

Offline davekni

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2023, 04:54:23 AM »
Quote
Antenna and secondary feedback was how it was done 10+ years ago  ;)
I'd thought those were all SSTCs, not DRSSTCs.  Were there other DRSSTC examples like this?  My first coil was 9 years ago, so no personal experience that far back.  (And at the time I didn't know of other designs or any of the acronyms such as SSTC or DRSSTC.)

Quote
If I'm right I shouldn't use diodes across the gate-resistors?
Yes, that's my suggestion, no diodes.  Most designs do use diodes, but also have lower impedance gate drive (FET buffer after driver chips, 1:1 GDT with lower leakage inductance).  Your rise time looks good for sufficient dead time.  Also, if you were to add diodes, gate resistor power dissipation would go down and driver chip power dissipation go up.  Might be more heat than driver chips can handle if diodes are added.

Quote
My coupling seems way too high, around 30%. This is because the diameter of the secondary coil is 11 cm and the diameter of the primary just 13 cm. Should I switch to a horizontal primary coil?
Coupling is higher than most DRSSTC designs.  However, I have no idea what ideal coupling is for a secondary-feedback DRSSTC.  Anyone else have experience with secondary-feedback DRSSTC?  I'd love to see more information about these designs and how they perform.

Quote
And I have forgotten to mention that I use MUR460 and 440V TVS-diodes across each EC-path of the IGBTs.
Don't see any avalanche energy specification for this old IGBT.  No way to tell if TVS diodes are helpful or harmful.  Also hard to tell if MUR460 is a problem or not.  It will share current with IGBT's internal anti-parallel diode.  Both diodes have negative Vf vs. temperature curves.  If MUR460 conducts enough current to get hot, then it will take even more of the current and get even hotter.  Also don't know how much current the TVS diodes may share in forward conduction.  Since your coil has been working so far, perhaps leave it alone.  For anyone using newer IGBTs with avalanche energy rating, I'd recommend no external C-E diodes, only bidirectional TVS for gate protection.

Good luck with your coil!
David Knierim

Offline stoppi_physics

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2023, 12:09:23 PM »
Thank's dave for your help  :)

I have started to build this DRSSTC 10 years ago but then left the project until now. Therefore I oversplept the new designs with OCP and primary feedback...

The reason why I still try to use this design is that I want a very simple setup. And my expectations concerning the output are not very high. As I mentioned before I would be very happy with 30-40 cm sparks.

Here you can see exactly the same setup running:


I'll make a horizontal primary coil to lower the coupling, hoping to reduce the current consumption in burst mode. If I have new informations I'll inform you.

Thank's for your great help, cheers stoppi

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2023, 01:44:17 PM »
Quote
Antenna and secondary feedback was how it was done 10+ years ago  ;)
I'd thought those were all SSTCs, not DRSSTCs.  Were there other DRSSTC examples like this?  My first coil was 9 years ago, so no personal experience that far back.  (And at the time I didn't know of other designs or any of the acronyms such as SSTC or DRSSTC.)

Steve Wards and Jimmy Hynes first work from interrupted SSTC to DRSSTC was using secondary base current feedback: https://stevehv.4hv.org/DRSSTC1.htm
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Offline davekni

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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2023, 06:35:19 AM »
Quote
Steve Wards and Jimmy Hynes first work from interrupted SSTC to DRSSTC was using secondary base current feedback: https://stevehv.4hv.org/DRSSTC1.htm
Thank you for the link.  Looks like secondary feedback lasted for about a year.  That schematic is dated 4/2004.  Next version with primary feedback is dated 3/2005.
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Re: Problems with my simple DRSSTC
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2023, 06:35:19 AM »

 


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[Electronic Circuits]
rikkitikkitavi
January 17, 2023, 12:43:26 PM
post Re: 8 kW Induction Cooktop Teardown and Reverse engineering
[Electronic Circuits]
klugesmith
January 17, 2023, 07:51:05 AM
post Re: QCW questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Rafft
January 17, 2023, 07:02:37 AM
post Re: 8 kW Induction Cooktop Teardown and Reverse engineering
[Electronic Circuits]
Twospoons
January 17, 2023, 05:41:59 AM
post Re: QCW questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
January 17, 2023, 05:41:38 AM
post Re: QCW questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Rafft
January 17, 2023, 05:06:24 AM
post Re: 8 kW Induction Cooktop Teardown and Reverse engineering
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
January 17, 2023, 05:04:21 AM

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