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Messages - Anders Mikkelsen

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1
Infineon H7 is pretty recent IGBT technology, with an impressive combination of low conduction and switching losses. I didn't realize it was on the market yet in 650V. Icm is 600 A, which is pretty impressive for a TO-247 part, and the Vce vs Ic curves really support that these devices can handle a lot of current.

2
Electronic Circuits / Re: CM400 Induction Heater
« on: March 26, 2024, 01:41:49 PM »
Quote
I'm trying to wrap my head around why higher frequency is more effective on nonmagnetic loads where we do not have hysteresis losses - is it because higher frequency leads to a higher voltage across the work coil?
Yes, higher work coil voltage, which translates to higher volts/turn at load too.

Quote
With a steel tube in the coil, you might end up with a Q as low as 4, which allows you to transfer 34/4 = 8.5 kW while staying within the ratings of your capacitors. For solid steel well matched to the size of the coil, Q might be 5 - 8, up to a few times that for smaller work pieces. For aluminium workpieces, a Q in the 20 - 50 range is not unrealistic, and for copper it can exceed 100.
Anders:  Any idea what Q range would be for graphite crucibles?  I'd expect Q to be well lower than for directly heating copper or aluminum.  If I understand correctly, Markus' plan is to use graphite crucibles for melting.

I just did some quick measurements with a tight fitting coil around a large crucible, the best practical case, and it goes from around 3.5 at 30 kHz to 5.5 at 100 kHz, so not too bad. This is practically with no clearance between the coil and crucible, so I would target maybe 5 - 8 Q at 50 kHz to give more flexibility in the crucible selection in practice. For a project of this cost and magnitude, I would not skimp on the tank VARs, and the numbers I gave for the FKP1s are really pushing the limit. It's also nice to be able to heat aluminum directly in ceramic crucibles, and steel above the curie point, since my experience is that graphite crucibles oxidize away with time if no protective atmosphere is used. I would still stand by my recommendation to use a purpose-made induction heating cap, given that a 300 kVAR part costs less than 100 euros from normal distributors, and 500 kVAR can be had for less than 150. This gives a lot more VARs per dollar (or euro) compared to FKP1s, with easier mounting, cooling and lower stray inductance to boot. I have  a good stock of new Celem 500 kVAR caps that I got for 25 dollars each, and I would be fine with donating one to the cause if Markus is in Europe, given the cost of shipping here.

Quote
I'm trying to wrap my head around why higher frequency is more effective on nonmagnetic loads where we do not have hysteresis losses - is it because higher frequency leads to a higher voltage across the work coil?
Yes, higher work coil voltage, which translates to higher volts/turn at load too.

Hysteresis loss is not usually very significant, and the large change in Q when steel goes above the curie point is mainly from the drop in permeability. Reflected resistance is proportional to the root of the ratio of resistivity to permeability. Hysteresis loss might represent some 15 - 30 % of losses, but the permeability can easily change from 1000 to 1, giving a loss ratio of sqrt(1000/1) = 30 between being below and above the curie point.

Inductive reactance of the coil, and therefore VARs per amp, rises linearly with frequency. Workpiece deposited power grows with the square root of frequency for a given coil and current, due to the skin depth decreasing with sqrt(F), so you get more heating per amp at higher frequency with a given coil and workpiece, but less heating per VAR. More coil turns gives more heating per amp, while preserving VARs, if the geometry is kept the same, but there's a practical upper limit to how many turns you can have. Since most film caps come with a 500+ V rating, it makes sense to dimension the tank to benefit from that.

3
Electronic Circuits / Re: CM400 Induction Heater
« on: March 25, 2024, 04:47:17 PM »
Congratulations on getting it working. As you've seen, not having a matching transformer leads to a lot of losses in the IGBTs, given that it restricts you to using a pretty low bus voltage in order to keep the power at a reasonable level. This will be even less favorable with more difficult loads, since the series resonant tank will draw maximum current when the loading is the lightest (highest Q), while a ferromagnetic steel tube will present the lowest Q of any practical load.

Your IGBTs are also pretty oversized in terms of rated current. I would aim for some more modern 1200 V parts of lower rated current, and operate it off rectified 3-phase mains. A full bridge running from 560 V bus would only need to push some 25 - 30 A to deliver your target power, so using 400 A parts just leads to uneccessary drive power requirements.

For the matching transformer, 0.5 mm wire is technically within a few skin depths of the operating frequency, but as long as you have more than a single wire then you also need to consider proximity effect. For this frequency, I would go with 0.1 mm or finer litz, but 0.2 mm is likely also fine, especially if you use a single layer winding on your toroid.

The ferrite should work fine. At these low frequencies, any power grade of ferrite should be fine.

Your caps are rated at 2.5 A RMS a piece for 15 degree internal heating. If we aim for the best practical external cooling, we can get away with 60 degrees heating, so double the current, that's 5 A per cap. .22 uF is 15 ohms at 50 kHz, which gives you a cap voltage of 15*5 = 75 V RMS at the maximum rated cap current, or 5 A * 75 V = 375 VA per cap, for a total of 34 kVAR for the 90 caps, independently of how they are configured. Right now it also looks like you have some stray inductance in your tank circuit which will eat up some of those VARs as well, by the ratio of work coil inductance to total tank inductance.

With a steel tube in the coil, you might end up with a Q as low as 4, which allows you to transfer 34/4 = 8.5 kW while staying within the ratings of your capacitors. For solid steel well matched to the size of the coil, Q might be 5 - 8, up to a few times that for smaller work pieces. For aluminium workpieces, a Q in the 20 - 50 range is not unrealistic, and for copper it can exceed 100. It follows that the power throughput will be very limited. I would definitely look for a larger capacitor if you're aiming for 10 kW. I would aim for at least 300 kVAR for a heater of this size, to give some leeway for processing a usable fraction of the rated power across a range of loads. Where are you located? A proper induction heating cap doesn't need to be particularly expensive.


4
General Chat / Re: Best Solution for a 80MHz / 100kV Source
« on: February 26, 2024, 01:20:59 PM »
It will be exceedingly hard to do this continously, but pulsed has a chance of working.

Even just 1 pF of stray capacitance at 80 MHz is around 2 kohm, meaning it will draw 50 A from your 100 kV source, or 5 MVA of reactive power. If you can make a resonant circuit with a Q of 100, that would be 50 kW of losses. In practice, 1 pF will be hard to reach, even 10 pF is optimistic, so you can at least multiply those numbers by 10. Then you have half a million watts of losses to deal with, and scaling up the setup to simplify cooling will further increase the capacitance.

If you can live with a few cycles of damped 80 MHz oscillation, dumping a capacitor into an inductor should work. This could practically give you some tens to hundreds of cycles every millisecond maybe.

5
Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC) / Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
« on: February 11, 2024, 10:30:38 PM »
I missed the fact that it was operating around 13 MHz, in which case the situation is a bit better. 47 pF is around 250 ohms at this frequency, so the additional loading from the series 1k and clamping diodes will have less of an impact than I expected, though maybe a bit much for comfort when using PC1. I usually use a D flip-flop together with an XOR gate to unwrap the PC1 range around zero degrees, so it covers -180 to +180, but I also know people had success using PC3 for tesla coil applications. PC2 will not work well when both inputs are frequency-locked together.

6
Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC) / Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
« on: February 07, 2024, 09:49:11 PM »
I'm not totally convinced by the network between the base current transformer and the logic buffer. What's the purpose of the parallel capacitor and series resistor? As drawn, it provides a more or less fixed 90 degree phase shift for small signals, before the clamping diodes are forward biased. When the signal gets larger and the diodes start conducting, it provides a different amount of phase shift, and one that varies a lot with frequency. Given that the range of PC1 is only 180 degrees centered about 90 degrees, it takes some care to keep the plant from exceeding this range (which often leads to latchup with the PLL stuck at one end of the range).

7
In my experience, these kind of supplies lend themselves well to power control by changing the input voltage. My experience is based on Hongba HB- series SSNSTs. A variac would work, and a dimmer might work in a pinch but this is not guaranteed. I've used variable DC supplies to power them, but you need one that goes up to some 200+ V.

8
The 10 ohm forms an RC filter together with the decoupling capacitor for the PLL VCC, to keep gate driver noise from affecting the PLL. In my experience, PLLs can be sensitive to supply noise.

9
Beginners / Re: How to switch HV between AC and DC
« on: January 22, 2024, 02:55:28 PM »
Exactly what are you trying to achieve with this? Some more context makes it easier to give useful advice. How much power are you aiming for and what is the nature of the load?

You can't connect them in parallel, the rectifier would short the AC output, and the AC transformer secondary would short the DC output. The former can be addressed by a DC blocking cap (at the cost of some reactive current flow), while latter issue would require an impractically large AC blocking inductor in series with the rectifier. Relays would be a lot more compact and cheaper compared to a kilohenry 30 kV inductor

10
Modulate to what extent? What type of modulation and at what rate?

That supply will likely give a HF (20 - 60 kHz range) output, modulated by full-wave rectified mains voltage. The solid state NSTs I've taken apart use the self oscillating BJT half bridge circuit commonly also found in compact fluorescent bulbs and state halogen transformers. You can shape the envelope of the output by modulating the input voltage to the NST, if you don't require very fast modulation.

11
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW Version 2.0
« on: January 04, 2024, 02:47:04 PM »
For the current transducers, the Tamura would probably be fine, but the dynamic behavior is so badly specified (only a vague di/dt rise time specified) that I would prefer something with better documented behavior. The ICE part is meant for busbar mounting, and I would be a bit worried about stray field rejection and sensitivity deviation depending on your busbar geometry vs. the reference case. I would consider something like this https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/mornsun-america-llc/TL300-D1C/18735421 or https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/lem-usa-inc/HASS-200-S/1680530 , with preference to the Mornsun part.

For comparing devices, the datasheet current rating is pretty much meaningless, it's basically the current the device can run at with the package immersed in boiling freon without exceeding the maximum junction temperature. It does not consider realistic cooling systems, and it does not consider switching losses, so it's useless for comparing devices in *SSTC applications. The main issue is that IGBTs have much higher switching losses than IGBTs, and soft switching only helps to a limited extent due to effects like channel forward recovery. The best practical comparison I have found is from the paper "The practical use of SiC devices in high power, high frequency inverters for industrial induction heating applications", because it considers both resonant operation and frequencies in the range where QCW coils operate, I've attached a figure here:



This is comparing 300 A class SiC MOSFET bricks with 300 A class fast IGBT bricks, and even with three times as many IGBTs, you get less than half the output power at 400 kHz. There will not be a factor six improvement for pulsed coils, as MOSFET conduction losses rise quicker than those of IGBTs, favoring CW operation, but I would not be surprised if you get a factor 3 improvement, i.e. three times the amount of power for a given device current rating.

SiC device performance peaks at higher voltages, so you get better value from using 1200 V devices and much higher bus voltage. Both Steve Ward and Jan Martis' SiC QCW designs run at 800 V bus. Looking at existing designs gives a good idea of how much you can get out of a given device size. Steve Ward's 3-phase QCW only used two 21 mohm 1200 V MOSFETs to drive each coil, and that's using frequency detuning which is even more lossy than phase shift control.

12
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW Version 2.0
« on: January 04, 2024, 02:33:52 AM »
It seems a bit counterintuitive that you'd need 16 expensive SiC cascodes to replace these four IGBTs, what part numbers were you looking at and how do you gauge their equivalence?

For DC current measurements, the easiest approach is to use a DC-capable magnetic current sensor, like a hall effect or fluxgate based model from for example LEM. Though if you use SiC, it's also an option to use phase shift control and get rid of the buck altogether.

13
Sil-pads are easy to use, but the performance is not amazing. For a TO-247 package, they add 2 - 3 k/W thermal resistance for a TO-247 for typical materials, down to around 1.5 k/W for high performance versions. That's 70+ degrees Celcius of additional junction temperature rise at a dissipation of 50W per device. Micas can be around twice as good, at the cost of more drain-heatsink capacitance on account of their lower thickness. Kapton film can perform better, but add even more capacitance for a given thermal resistance, and I've had failures from less than perfect heatsink surface condition and high dV/dt stress. That's 8 kV rated kapton thermal foil that failed after around half an hour at 800 V, 50 V/ns, 75 kHz.

Ceramics are by far the best. Alumina (Al2O3) at 1 mm thickness gives around 0.25 k/w, which can be reduced by going down to 0.63 or 0.50 mm at the cost of some capacitance (which will still be a lot lower than with mica or kapton). Electrical robustness is also extremely good. For even better performance, AlN can be used, which is almost as thermally conductive as aluminium or BeO, at some cost. Note that ceramics are a bit more finicky when it comes to flatness, both of the insulator sheet and the heatsink surface. Some extruded heatsinks are far from flat, others are pretty good, but ones with machined surfaces will always be best.

Spring clip clamping is also superior to using a screw through the package hole, by providing more pressure, more even distribution, and better creepage distances.

Some Aliexpress ceramic insulators, checked or sorted for flatness within say 50 µm, paired with a flat heatsink, a good paste in a not too thick layer, and a good spring clip like the MAX08NG, gives very good performance without being too expensive or difiicult to work with. Beware that some pastes are somewhat conductive, but there are good ones without metallic fillers. Even metallic fillers pastes can be used, as long as it's not smeared near the package pins or across the edge of the insulator.

Edit: as mentioned, direct contact reduces the interface thermal resistance even more, with the same concerns about using a good paste, not applying too much, having a flat heatsink and applying even pressure. Small heatsinks with a lot of air flow can perform better than large heatsinks under any air flow conditions. A bottleneck is how far the heat can spread from the transistor, due to the bulk thermal resistance of the heatsink. Having the fins close to the device and good forced airflow is hard to beat.

14
Sell / Buy / Trade / Re: WTS/WTT: T520-2 - Micrometals core, MO, USA
« on: November 19, 2023, 11:34:16 PM »
Saturation with powder cores does not happen abruptly like with ferrite, but across a very wide range of currents. It's perfectly fine to operate the core with less than 20 % remaining permeability, as long as your design can handle the resulting ripple current.

As mentioned by Dave, it sounds like you are aiming for a lot of inductance for this application and current, and very little drop in inductance. That will require a very large and expensive inductor. As a point of reference, I've done a 16 kW continous buck using a core that cost less than 5 dollars, with over 99 % efficiency. This was using SiC, but at frequencies where IGBTs work well aside from having higher switching losses.

15
MCP6561/MCP6562 are also nice options. Not as fast as the TLV3501 or TL3116, but very good value if your application can live with some 50 ns propagation delay.

16
That's basically what a TIG welder with HF start does, use some kilovolts to ionize the air, then current limited low voltage to maintain it. Minimum arc voltage drop is some 10 - 30 V in Argon, but an open circuit voltage of twice that is needed if you use inductive ballasting, in order to maintain arc stability.

17
Each multiplier stage gives a voltage equal to Vpp, which is 2.8 * Vrms for a sinewave. So 60 kV out (neglecting voltage drop from loadin) would correspond to 60 / (4*2.8) = 5.3 kV RMS, or 7.5 kV peak.

If I understand correctly, the problem is that the circuit is not drawing much power when you load the output of the multiplier? How are you loading the multiplier and what happens when you do so? Does the multiplier output voltage collapse? Does the transformer secondary voltage disappear?







































18
What's limiting the output power, is the multiplier output voltage collapsing under load? How are you measuring the flyback secondary voltage and multiplier output voltage?

19
Electronic Circuits / Re: A 'ZVS' style oscillator optimization problem
« on: September 09, 2023, 06:49:12 PM »
I've played a bit with inductance fed parallel resonant halfbridge circuits, of which the classic "ZVS" circuit is the simplest possible form. My experiences were:

1: It's critical to have some conduction overlap in the two transistors, in order to not get overvoltage spikes from interrupting the current in the DC link inductor(s). This conduction overlap is only guaranteed by the balance of turn-on and turn-off times in the transistor, which is not a well controlled parameter, especially when people use whichever transistors they can find.
2: Conduction overlap is problematic though, since it essentially shorts out the tank circuit. Depending on the tank impedance and VARs, and the actual overlap time and frequency, this can represent significant power loss in the devices.

To deal with (1), it's good to enforce some overlap using RC delays, but this makes (2) worse. The common solution for larger CFPR inverters is to have diodes in series with the switching devices to block this current, this makes it possible to have an arbitrary amount of overlap. Then a bit of phase lead is required to ensure ZVS. As long as all these things are in place, the circuit can be scaled up to the low MHz range and hundreds of kilowatts without any major challenges, but it does add enough complexity to make voltage fed half bridge inverters look attractive again.

20
General Chat / Re: Need Help with Tetrode Sources.
« on: September 07, 2023, 01:50:38 AM »
There are a lot of good ones here: http://www.tubebooks.org/technical_books_online.htm

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[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
April 11, 2024, 07:39:30 PM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 11, 2024, 07:24:52 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
sky-guided
April 11, 2024, 06:09:30 PM
post UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
April 11, 2024, 12:55:16 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 03:40:00 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
sky-guided
April 11, 2024, 03:05:07 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 02:57:33 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 01:44:32 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 01:31:40 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 11, 2024, 01:11:00 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 12:58:52 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 12:31:37 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 12:30:21 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 10, 2024, 11:41:46 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
April 10, 2024, 11:33:32 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 10:41:33 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
MRMILSTAR
April 10, 2024, 10:31:31 PM
post Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 09:56:35 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 08:59:26 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 10, 2024, 06:35:30 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 10, 2024, 05:35:14 PM
post Medium Drsstc question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 03:07:02 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:42:12 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:41:04 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
sky-guided
April 10, 2024, 02:50:23 AM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Unrealeous
April 10, 2024, 01:32:17 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:26:29 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:18:35 AM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 09, 2024, 07:34:19 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 09, 2024, 06:14:27 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
April 09, 2024, 06:08:53 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 09, 2024, 05:15:19 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 09, 2024, 05:11:04 PM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
April 09, 2024, 06:32:16 AM
post DRSSTC V1 using BSM150
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Unrealeous
April 09, 2024, 04:04:47 AM

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