Author Topic: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets  (Read 1686 times)

Offline Simranjit

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Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« on: June 05, 2024, 08:46:53 PM »
Hi, I need help debugging signal on Mosfets (IXTQ52n30p) of my solid state tesla coil. Specs are:
Drivers = UCC27321
Resonant frequency = 94 kHz
Power =2.8A @ 30v
Coil = 5 turns primary and around 2000 secondary.
I built the circuit with copper tape to reduce parasitic inductance. (thanks to davekni works like a charm) This is probably the angriest sparks I got since I started building tesla coils 6 moths ago. I have not used any diodes across Mosfets because I tested them in circuit and they don't seem to have any effect.
16v Zener diodes on gates of both Mosfets.
Q1 heats up more and also gate resistor on Q1 will start to smoke after a while. I'm attaching pictures for signals for both Mosfets for gate and drain.

Edit: I'm also attaching gate waveform of Q1 (yellow) with respect to secondary waveform (pink) detected by oscilloscope probe placed about 2 feet away.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2024, 09:11:59 PM by Simranjit »

Offline ZakW

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2024, 09:29:18 PM »
Hello Simranjit,

Do you have a schematic you can share? Thanks for the scope captures and build pictures, that helps a lot. A couple of things come to mind based on the information you provided so far.

It looks like you are using diodes across your gate resistors, maybe for faster turn off? They are usually only advised when using IGBTs. Quote from Dave here https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1269.msg9315#msg9315- "When using a GDT to drive symmetric gate waveforms, I use diodes for IGBTs only.  The diode speeds up turn-off, compensating for the IGBT's typically slower turn-off time compared to turn-on time.  FETs are generally fast enough to avoid any cross-conduction without speeding up gate turn-off."

Normally, a schottky diode is used across the resistor, something like the 1N5819 

Quote
16v Zener diodes on gates of both Mosfets.
Your gate voltage looks too high for MOSFETs, should be around +-12V from a GDT. Since your gate voltage is higher than 16v and you are using two 16v zeners in anti-parallel they could be conducting and overheating your gate resistor. Are you powering the UCC chips with 12v or 15v? 12v is good for MOSFETS while I tend to use higher voltage driver ICs for IGBTs.

Is your GDT 1:1?

-Zak

Offline Simranjit

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2024, 10:13:03 PM »
Hi, thank you for your response. I'm attaching the a rough schematic. Yes, I'm using diodes for faster turn off(maybe I will remove them in future). GDT is not 1:1 (6 turns primary, 9 turns secondary). I'm powering  UCCchips with 12v. The antenna also has 2x 1k resistors in series. I forgot to add them in schematic.

Offline Michelle_

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2024, 10:18:57 PM »
I would try with just the gate resistors but no diodes and see if it has the same issue. I had issues with my bridge because I thought I had bi directional TVS diodes but they weren't bi directional. There was still a pulse on the gate but the resistors got HOT very fast.

Offline Simranjit

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2024, 11:11:17 PM »
I would try with just the gate resistors but no diodes and see if it has the same issue. I had issues with my bridge because I thought I had bi directional TVS diodes but they weren't bi directional. There was still a pulse on the gate but the resistors got HOT very fast.

But weird thing is only Q1 gate resistor gets hot.

Offline ZakW

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2024, 01:43:41 AM »
Hi, thank you for your response. I'm attaching the a rough schematic. Yes, I'm using diodes for faster turn off(maybe I will remove them in future). GDT is not 1:1 (6 turns primary, 9 turns secondary). I'm powering  UCCchips with 12v. The antenna also has 2x 1k resistors in series. I forgot to add them in schematic.

Thanks for the schematic, I think it looks good.

I would recommend using a 1:1 GDT for a better signal output. Having more or less turns on the primary or secondary can negatively impact waveform. If you need higher output voltage, it is better to use a higher voltage driver IC, many of them have the same pin out as the UCC chips so they are easy to swap out. You just need to make sure you choose the proper inverting/non-inverting etc.

But again with MOSFETs you generally don't need to go above +-12v for gate drive.

Quote
I would try with just the gate resistors but no diodes and see if it has the same issue.
I agree, by removing some of the parts it is easier to pinpoint the issue.

You don't have to run the coil without the diodes if you don't want to, I would just desolder one leg of them and then turn on the driver. See if the waveform changes at all.

Offline davekni

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2024, 04:00:52 AM »
Quote
I would recommend using a 1:1 GDT for a better signal output.
Yes, definitely better.  Even better yet with two paralleled primary wires, one for each secondary:
    https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1854.msg13949#msg13949

Quote
I had issues with my bridge because I thought I had bi directional TVS diodes but they weren't bi directional.
This circuit is using back-to-back zener diodes, which is effectively same as a single bidirectional diode.  Presuming zeners are correct voltage, that's not the issue here.  However, Vgs waveforms are asymmetric.  Wrong zener voltage would be one possible explanation, but not only one.

Quote
* q1_gate.jpeg
Much better to use scope probe in 10x mode.  1x mode probes have quite low bandwidth and high loading capacitance.  For 10x probing, do carefully adjust probe's compensation capacitor using scope's test square wave output.  Otherwise results are misleading.

This Vgs waveform is quite asymmetric and much lower voltage than would be expected given your schematic, roughly +5V to -10V.  If waveform looks similar after changing scope probe to 10x, I'd test again with all diodes removed.  No need for 30Vbus supply in that test.  Just check for an appropriate square wave.  Once GDT is 1:1, square wave should be close to +-12V, a but lower due to forward drop of driver chips.

Quote
Drivers = UCC27321
You may want to consider adding schottky diodes on UCC27321 outputs, one to +12V and one to Gnd for each chip.  Many similar schematics include such.  UCC27321 and similar driver chips are intended for driving gates directly (through R/D), not for GDTs.  Added diodes handle reverse current (GDT magnetization current).  Less important if your GDT inductance is high (high permeability core) making magnetization current low.

Quote
* q2_gate.jpeg
This Vgs signal looks more like would be expected.  Voltage looks about right for a 1:1 GDT, however.  I'd have expected 1:1.5 to have boosted Vgs more.
Indicates issue may be with wrong zener voltage on Q1 or damaged Q1.
Slope on top and bottom of Vgs (which should be close to a square wave) isn't terrible, but more than ideal.  Could be due to load from bad Q1 circuit.  Or could be due to a low inductance GDT (low permeability core) or even a bad driver chip.  If fixing Q1 issue doesn't resolve this, I'd scope output of each driver chip and GDT primary after 1uF coupling cap.

Quote
* q2_gate.jpeg
Circuit layout looks good, especially half-bridge and GDT connections (nicely twisted and connected to FETs opposite high current S/D leads).
Breadboard construction of driver can sometimes be problematic due to lack of good ground plane and/or inductance between driver chips and their bypass caps.  However, I don't see any issues in scope traces that suggest driver board issues.

Quote
But weird thing is only Q1 gate resistor gets hot.
Yes, there appears to be some bad part or wrong value for Q2 or its gate components.

Good luck with debug!  May be as simple as fixing one fried or wrong-value zener for Q2.  Though I'd still recommend changing to a 1:1 GDT per tutorial link above.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 04:02:30 AM by davekni »
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Offline Simranjit

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2024, 04:50:00 AM »
Quote
Yes, definitely better.  Even better yet with two paralleled primary wires, one for each secondary:
I was actually planning on doing it. I saw your post before  ;D ;D ;D. All of your posts are very knowledgeable.

Quote
You may want to consider adding schottky diodes on UCC27321 outputs, one to +12V and one to Gnd for each chip.  Many similar schematics include such.  UCC27321 and similar driver chips are intended for driving gates directly (through R/D), not for GDTs.  Added diodes handle reverse current (GDT magnetization current).  Less important if your GDT inductance is high (high permeability core) making magnetization current low.
Could you please show me a rough schematic for it. I would really appreciate it. I'm actually using N87 core.

Quote
Indicates issue may be with wrong Zener voltage on Q1 or damaged Q1.
You nailed it right on spot. I was actually coming back to reply that I found the issue. Q1 was partially working somehow. I bought used mosfets from Aliexpress. I tested the waveform with two known good mosfets and 555 timer (to generate waveform). And Q1 was the issue. I actually saw your other posts also where you pinpoint issues with the circuit before the the original poster. Dammmm I super impressed. Hats Off.

I also removed two 1N4148 from gate of mosfets. Mosfets are working just fine without diodes.

I am attaching the picture of drain of one of the mosfets. This is the nicest waveform I have seen in my circuits till now. Im drawing over 4A @ 30V (6 primary turns) with no transients. Arcs looks hella angry. Gate waveform is also sharp and beautiful. It is working so good now. I started the making tesla coil circuits since December. I started with slayer exciter circuit and currently trying to understand half bridge tesla coil and then I will move further. I even made my own tesla coil winding machine with steppers motors.

I would like to thank everyone for their responses and their help. I'm loving this community.

« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 05:16:50 AM by Simranjit »

Offline ZakW

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2024, 05:17:02 AM »
Glad to hear you got it working! Dave is the man!

Quote
Could you please show me a rough schematic for it. I would really appreciate it. I'm actually using N87 core.
Here is an example from my thread here - https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=2667.msg20053#msg20053

This is the direct link to the final PDF schematic - https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2667.0;attach=20219

Quote
I started the making tesla coil circuits since December. I started with slayer exciter circuit and currently trying to understand half bridge tesla coil and then I will move further.
Great progress so far, it is a lot of fun!

Quote
I would like to thank everyone for their responses and their help. I'm loving this community.
You're welcome, it is great to see new members and new projects  :D

Offline davekni

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2024, 03:16:31 AM »
Quote
And Q1 was the issue. I actually saw your other posts also where you pinpoint issues with the circuit before the the original poster. Dammmm I super impressed. Hats Off.
Quote
Glad to hear you got it working! Dave is the man!
Thank you both for the ego boost :)  Of course, don't take everything I post as absolute.  I do make mistakes.  Please feel free to question.
David Knierim

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Re: Half bridge sstc different waveform on two mosfets
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2024, 03:16:31 AM »

 


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post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 07:51:37 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
July 02, 2024, 06:14:07 PM
post Is this a good pulse experiment capacitor?
[Capacitor Banks]
FPS
July 02, 2024, 06:02:38 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 11:37:46 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:22:10 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:16:30 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
drobotk
July 01, 2024, 11:50:12 PM
post Re: Restoring a Rogowski coil calibrator
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:48:53 PM
post Uses for Weston's Little Bee probe
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:40:59 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:09:42 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
June 30, 2024, 06:49:45 AM

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