Author Topic: Drsstc feedback startup  (Read 3229 times)

Offline RoamingD

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Drsstc feedback startup
« on: September 18, 2023, 02:59:10 PM »
Hello, it may sound like a stupid question, but do I need to have my secondary coil in place for my ud2.7c to be able to pick up the feedback signal from the primary coil?
Currently my driver works fine only when it is fed a 120khz square wave, and the feedback transformer when loaded with a 51ohm burden resistor appears on the oscilloscope

Offline flyingperson23

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2023, 04:29:15 PM »
No, the UD operates on primary current feedback; all it needs is for current to be flowing through the primary. If you operate without a secondary, the UD will oscillate normally as current will still flow through the primary.

Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2023, 05:01:22 PM »
Some quick scope shots, this is the halfbridge output working when the driver is fed a signal
I fed it 170 vac on the bus at some point and nothing blew up so the halfbridge is switching right

This is the feedback transformer loaded on a 51ohm burden resistor and it looks good  ???

but the really strange output is this "starting pulse" that I measured on the gdt when it has no feedback connected, to me it looks inverted, how is this possible?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2023, 05:05:26 PM by RoamingD »

Offline flyingperson23

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2023, 06:20:30 PM »
Those waveforms look normal enough to me. What do you mean by 'inverted'?

Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2023, 07:46:46 PM »
I mean the output is almost high and has just a short off time, kinda like a high duty cycle, and on the internet I saw quite the opposite, a short positive pulse, not a short gnd pulse like mine, I really don't know, but the circuit isn't able to start it's oscillation from the current transformer

Offline flyingperson23

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2023, 12:45:37 AM »
Did you try changing the phasing on the driver? If your feedback phase is wrong it won't oscillate under its own feedback.

Offline davekni

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2023, 06:15:40 AM »
Quote
Some quick scope shots, this is the halfbridge output working when the driver is fed a signal
I fed it 170 vac on the bus at some point and nothing blew up so the halfbridge is switching right
Do you have a bleed resistor pulling half-bridge output low?  Something is causing output to end up at 0V after enable pulse ends.
Looks like Vbus is 60V for this scope capture.  Is that accurate?  Is Vbus 60V for the current transformer output capture too?

Quote
but the really strange output is this "starting pulse" that I measured on the gdt when it has no feedback connected, to me it looks inverted, how is this possible?
Where on GDT are you probing?  Is this low-side Vge (or Vgs if using FETs)?  If so, it looks appropriate, other than possible CT inversion issue as flyingperson23 mentioned.  What does half-bridge output look like?  What does voltage across UD2.7 51-ohm resistor look like?
If this is low-side Vge, then high side Vge should be a matching positive pulse.  That should make a low-to-high transition on half-bridge output.  That output transition should cause current that should trigger another transition.
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Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2023, 07:53:34 AM »
Quote
Do you have a bleed resistor pulling half-bridge output low?  Something is causing output to end up at 0V after enable pulse ends.
Looks like Vbus is 60V for this scope capture.  Is that accurate?  Is Vbus 60V for the current transformer output capture too?
This horrible thing I drew is the schematic of the bridge, I dont use any bleed resistor except on the bus capacitor

and this is how I connected the probe

This is how I connected and measured the feedback transformer with a 120khz signal from a 555 timer fed in the feedback connector, the variac was set to 50v ac

With no feedback transformer/signal generator, this is the startup pulse that I can measure on the gates of the igbt, is this normal?


And I dont think the gdt is the problem because with external feedback, the circuit didnt blow at 170vac input and also no real heating, at some point I was even tripping the ocd
I really dont know what to do, but for a last resort can I run the coil based on the signal generator and ditch primary feedback, keeping in mind the ocd does still work?

Offline flyingperson23

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2023, 03:48:23 PM »
Typically the non-igbt end of a half bridge tank circuit is connected to a capacitive voltage divider, not Vbus-

Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2023, 03:57:15 PM »
I asked previously about this in this thread https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=2348.0

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2023, 08:46:36 PM »
I replied to your thread "Re: Inverter question" and I think your problem here is primary coil saturation, from leaving out the DC blocking capacitors. Often they are mistaken for only being used for voltage doubling in 120VAC countries, but that is just a double use of them.
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Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2023, 08:53:11 PM »
Oh, I see, but I have one more question, when adding the DC blocking caps does their capacity add up to the MMC?

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2023, 09:10:06 PM »
Oh, I see, but I have one more question, when adding the DC blocking caps does their capacity add up to the MMC?

Not if you calculate it correctly as I linked to in the other thread.
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Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2023, 10:02:13 PM »
Quote
Not if you calculate it correctly as I linked to in the other thread.
I am very sorry if my physics or mathematics skills are lacking :))) the resonant freq is 122khz with a 3.808 uH primary coil inductance
I have run the calculations and a 1uF capacitor will have 1.305 Ohms of reactance but the frequency comes at around 0.08164 kHz, will this work?
Also, another beginner question, what should the voltage rating of those caps be? Can I get away with 630v?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 10:46:46 PM by RoamingD »

Offline davekni

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2023, 05:24:44 AM »
Quote
I dont use any bleed resistor except on the bus capacitor
Then I'm puzzled as to why half-bridge output returns quickly to 0V (to Vbus-) shortly after a burst.  (This is from first scope capture of reply #2 above.)  Only explanations I'm thinking of at the moment are either there is some glitch in low-side IGBT Vge or the low-side IGBT is partially damaged (leakage current).

Quote
With no feedback transformer/signal generator, this is the startup pulse that I can measure on the gates of the igbt, is this normal?
I'll guess the probe is really 10x, so 20V/div.  Even then it does not look normal.   Initial -24V pulse looks somewhat reasonable, but too short.  Subsequent ring appears clipped, more square than sine wave, and too high frequency for your 122kHz coil.  Are you sure GDT is on ferrite core and not powdered iron?  It may work barely well enough for operation at 122kHz, but not for the initial start transition.

Quote
Typically the non-igbt end of a half bridge tank circuit is connected to a capacitive voltage divider, not Vbus-
Agree.  But I don't think this is a significant cause of issues showing up here.

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Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2023, 05:51:18 AM »
Sadly I am sure the gdt is proper ferrite, I have used this type of core in my 200khz sstc and it was fine, here is a link of it
https://www.tme.eu/ro/details/b64290l0618x830/miezuri-de-ferita/epcos/
Also, I think the output returning to 0 was some kind of weird glitch with that cheap oscilloscope, my trusty analog scope doesn't show it falling, but staying in the middle

Offline davekni

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2023, 06:05:54 AM »
Quote
Sadly I am sure the gdt is proper ferrite, I have used this type of core in my 200khz sstc and it was fine, here is a link of it
Material is fine.  How many turns are on your GDT?  Core is rather small for 120kHz.  I'm guessing core is saturating after 5us.  That should be just enough for 120kHz (4us half-cycle).  Not much margin, but probably not the main issue.

Quote
Also, I think the output returning to 0 was some kind of weird glitch with that cheap oscilloscope, my trusty analog scope doesn't show it falling, but staying in the middle
Puzzling, but I'll ignore that one capture showing quick return to Vbus-.  You still might need bleed resistors to keep half-bridge output at half way point.  Without scope load, if upper IGBT happens to have slightly higher leakage current, output may drift high.  Initial start pulse tries to pull it high.  If output is already high, no initial change, so no feedback.

I still suggest scoping UD2.7 51ohm CT burden resistor during that startup pulse, then half-bridge output.
David Knierim

Offline RoamingD

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2023, 04:39:36 PM »
Hello, I made a huge discovery, the whole thing works fine when I touch the 2nd or 3rd pin of the AD8561ANZ  ultra fast comparator that I used instead of the lt1001 with the tip of a oscilloscope probe
Now I am confused as to why does this solve the problem and what should I change on the board to make it work by itself
With red is where I probed and it stared working (the ground lead was not connected to anything)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 06:02:04 PM by RoamingD »

Offline davekni

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2023, 04:55:53 AM »
Quote
Hello, I made a huge discovery, the whole thing works fine when I touch the 2nd or 3rd pin of the AD8561ANZ  ultra fast comparator that I used instead of the lt1001 with the tip of a oscilloscope probe
Now I am confused as to why does this solve the problem and what should I change on the board to make it work by itself
With red is where I probed and it stared working (the ground lead was not connected to anything)
Scope probe and lead cable are acting as an antenna.  You are picking up enough either random noise or more likely voltage from secondary.  That pickup makes extra driver output transitions to start oscillation.

Three options come to mind for fixing this without a scope probe:

1) Add an antenna.  NOT recommended.  Hard to control what phase lead will be or how much signal may be picked up and over-drive comparitor input.

2) Fix the issue(s) preventing normal startup.  I've already twice suggested next scope measurements to take, so won't repeat here.

3) Modify your driver to be self-oscillating.  I described this for UD2.7 in third paragraph of this post:
    https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1373.msg10197#msg10197
David Knierim

Offline Hari33

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2023, 09:48:42 PM »
Hello, I made a huge discovery, the whole thing works fine when I touch the 2nd or 3rd pin of the AD8561ANZ  ultra fast comparator that I used instead of the lt1001 with the tip of a oscilloscope probe
Now I am confused as to why does this solve the problem and what should I change on the board to make it work by itself
With red is where I probed and it stared working (the ground lead was not connected to anything)


Hi, i am a complete beginner to drsstc, infact i am still in the process of building my first drsstc😅.
But i faced a similar issue while building the driver for my coil.i made Steve Wards 1.3b driver on bread board and it was giving the initial starting pulse only when i was probing the ouput of the mosfet driver.I think its because of the noise getting fixed due to the added capacitence of the probe.
I was able to solve this by connecting a 0.1uf capacitor between the point i probed and the ground.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 10:04:08 PM by Hari33 »

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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2023, 09:48:42 PM »

 


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[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hi-Deff
June 03, 2024, 01:25:24 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
June 03, 2024, 01:08:47 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
June 02, 2024, 10:29:02 PM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Michelle_
June 02, 2024, 10:02:45 PM
post Re: Racing sparks
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
June 02, 2024, 08:25:37 PM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Michelle_
June 02, 2024, 04:51:58 PM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
June 02, 2024, 04:44:30 PM
post Re: My completed 14-stage Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
June 02, 2024, 03:25:11 PM
post APC Smart-UPS 1500VA Teardown
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
June 02, 2024, 01:36:11 PM
post Re: My completed 14-stage Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier
[Voltage Multipliers]
pete_dl
June 02, 2024, 11:43:40 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
June 02, 2024, 08:49:11 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
June 02, 2024, 08:36:07 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
June 02, 2024, 12:41:50 AM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
June 01, 2024, 08:24:35 PM
post Pearson current monitor model 1330 teardown (100kA)
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Mads Barnkob
June 01, 2024, 08:22:28 PM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Michelle_
June 01, 2024, 03:56:53 AM
post Re: Racing sparks
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
June 01, 2024, 12:03:50 AM
post Re: First DRSSTC questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hi-Deff
May 31, 2024, 11:46:20 PM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Michelle_
May 31, 2024, 06:13:59 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
May 31, 2024, 01:55:22 AM
post Re: First DRSSTC questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
May 30, 2024, 11:57:49 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
May 30, 2024, 11:50:06 PM
post First DRSSTC questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hi-Deff
May 30, 2024, 11:23:35 PM
post Re: Steve Ward SSTC5 build
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
May 30, 2024, 10:43:06 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC3
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
May 30, 2024, 10:24:35 PM
post Re: SSTC tripping circuit breaker
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
NyaaX_X
May 30, 2024, 06:10:04 PM

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