Author Topic: Chinese branded IGBTs  (Read 4480 times)

Offline thaumatichthys

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Chinese branded IGBTs
« on: May 27, 2023, 11:37:29 PM »
Does anyone have experience with Chinese branded IGBTs for tesla coils? I've seen some on usually legit websites such as LCSC that seem to have similar specs to well known IGBTs at a much lower price, such as https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/IGBTs_XDM-XD075H065CX1S3_C5301882.html.

Offline Rafft

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2023, 04:39:59 AM »


I rely solely on the price when making purchases. My primary platform for ordering is Shopee, which offers cash on delivery (COD) service. Currently, I'm facing financial constraints and cannot afford to buy high-quality items from websites that require a credit card.

I believe that the more expensive a product is, the better its specifications will be. Once, I asked a seller about the actual part number of a product because its advertised part number and specifications were significantly different. Unfortunately, I didn't receive a satisfactory response. As a result, I have experienced some failures with my purchases, with some breaking easily and a few failing silently. I predominantly use IGBTs for welding, which are moderately fast but perhaps more durable.

In summary, the price of IGBTs serves as a gauge for me in determining their quality.



to the moderators: just testing AI to rewrite my wordings to be more understandable, english is not my primary language. sometime MY english dont come out right. kindly delete if not apropriate.
SGTC / SSTC / DR-SSTC / QCW

Offline Late

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2023, 08:04:54 PM »
I haven't really used any Chinese branded IGBTs but as its from a legit website I don't see why they wouldn't work. They might not perform as well as advertised but you never know. Sometimes Chinese electronics have surprised me. I think u should buy some and try them. Then report your results here.I might get some too to test them.
Hi, my name is Patriks and I'm from Latvia. I'm interesting electronics, especially power electronics and high voltage. I also make content on YouTube showing my journey in the awesome world of High Voltage.

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Offline AstRii

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2023, 08:21:00 PM »
Using Chinese products is always risky unfortunately. And the fact that a "trusted" seller is selling them is not enough of a proof in my experience. I would definitely not use Chinese IGBTs for some project where reliability is necessary (for example Tesla coils for public shows), if however you only want the coil for yourself and run it once in a while, that's another story..

If you ever buy questionable transistors and want to test them beforehand to tell if they are the real deal, I suggest you watch my video on the topic:
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Offline breezetix

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2023, 08:48:05 PM »
Does anyone have experience with Chinese branded IGBTs for tesla coils? I've seen some on usually legit websites such as LCSC that seem to have similar specs to well known IGBTs at a much lower price, such as https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/IGBTs_XDM-XD075H065CX1S3_C5301882.html.

Just look for used IGBTs on eBay or something. Scrapyards, etc. They will work, guarantee, at least most of the times. I've never had a dead or fake IGBT delivered.
I'm Trent and deaf. I like high voltage and try to make better YouTube content. Also a survivor of a PT explosion.

Offline Late

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2023, 08:48:24 PM »
Yea that is true. Chinese do like to fake their ratings. I've never before have had any issues with parts from LSCS though. And i think most used IGBT bricks you can find online for cheap are the real deal most of the time.

If you ever buy questionable transistors and want to test them beforehand to tell if they are the real deal, I suggest you watch my video on the topic:
Thanks for sharing the video. It will defiantly come in handy when testing IGBTs and fets.
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Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2023, 11:21:13 AM »
Hi all,
I spent a lot of time on my first drsstc the last few months but I was never able to get it running how it should be. After a closer inspection of my IGBT bricks (SKM200GB128D), I have a feeling that they could be fake. Switching times and waveforms are just off no matter what I change. There‘s a lot of information in the Brigde output thread. To summ it up briefly, turn on and turn off times are longer than in the datasheet and the bridge output signals are uneven.

The sides of the case look sanded and the QR code is the same on each brick. The QR code on legit bricks seems to contain name/type of brick as well as part number and (probably factory number). On my bricks however the code is much smaller in size and only contains information about the type of brick.


I think I got my hands on some fake bricks that got rebranded. If someone has any idea, I would be happy to know  :)

Cheers, Felix M.

Offline Anders Mikkelsen

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2023, 03:50:11 PM »
Interesting stuff. You could measure the gate capacitance and Vce_on at 10 A for example, if you're looking for a few more points of comparison against the datasheet and against known good devices.

Offline davekni

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2023, 06:16:28 AM »
Quote
To summ it up briefly, turn on and turn off times are longer than in the datasheet
My experience with smaller IGBTs and FETs is similar.  DC specifications are easier to check, so counterfeit parts often meet DC specifications.  AC specifications, especially delay, are more work to check.  Most purchasers (including companies) don't bother with such detailed checking.  Slow IGBTs are relatively simple and cheap to make.
David Knierim

Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2023, 04:17:08 PM »
Interesting stuff. You could measure the gate capacitance and Vce_on at 10 A for example, if you're looking for a few more points of comparison against the datasheet and against known good devices.

Gate capacitance for the fast brick is 17nF and for the slow one it's at 21nF (So way higher than the 13nF the datasheet calls for). Voltage drop accross collector emitter junction is roughly the same for the fast and the slow one. Both measure about 1.87V at a constant 10A when fully turned on with 18Vge.

Idk if it helps but here's a more detailed immage of one brick (the fast one)


(The slow brick I did the test on also made a very silent sizzeling sound when he saw 10A for more than 5s)
« Last Edit: August 25, 2023, 04:19:59 PM by Felix M. »

Offline davekni

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2023, 05:57:20 AM »
Quote
Gate capacitance for the fast brick is 17nF and for the slow one it's at 21nF (So way higher than the 13nF the datasheet calls for).
Did you bias Vce at 25V for gate capacitance measurements?  25Vce is measurement condition on data sheet (as is typical).  Gate capacitance will be higher at 0Vce.
David Knierim

Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2023, 04:12:36 PM »
Thank you for mentioning because I forgot. The fast brick has 14.15nF and the slow has 16.91nF.
Is the faster switching characteristic of the one brick related to it's gate capacity being smaller?

Offline TMaxElectronics

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2023, 06:36:59 PM »
Quote
To summ it up briefly, turn on and turn off times are longer than in the datasheet
tbh that is the case with almost every IGBT that I have seen so far. Even original new out of box parts. The companies always polish the measurements to such a degree that I personally always measure the switching times instead of beleiving the datasheet. Not sure which exact IGBTs you have, but I have some SKM200 bricks that claim something ridiculous like 50ns fall time. With some of my other bricks even claiming 12ns fall time... So just because the rise and fall times don't match the datasheet doesn't necessarily proove fake IGBTs :D

Did you open one of them up? Its pretty easy to do, and if you're careful with the gate wiring you won't break the bricks either (although re-assembly could be a pain)

Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2023, 08:01:11 PM »
I thought about opening them but I'll first contact the seller. It's probably pointless but worth a shot anyways. I thing you have such problems with most components and their data sheets but 10 times more turn on and twice as high turn off times are probably not in the range of tollerance.

Offline davekni

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2023, 10:06:38 PM »
Quote
tbh that is the case with almost every IGBT that I have seen so far. Even original new out of box parts. The companies always polish the measurements to such a degree that I personally always measure the switching times instead of beleiving the datasheet. Not sure which exact IGBTs you have, but I have some SKM200 bricks that claim something ridiculous like 50ns fall time. With some of my other bricks even claiming 12ns fall time... So just because the rise and fall times don't match the datasheet doesn't necessarily proove fake IGBTs :D
This has not been my experience.  IGBTs I've measured are usually close to typical values and always within worst-case specification values.

Specification for the STGW60H65DRF parts I use in my large DRSSTC (10 parallel per switch) include the following diagrams showing test circuit and resulting waveforms with definitions of parameters.  Rise and fall times are defined as current rise and fall, not voltage rise and fall.  I presume this is the standard definition for IGBTs, though I haven't researched such.  I have seen this same definition in at least one other IGBT specification.





And here's a snippet from CM600DY_13T brick data sheet.  Looks a bit different, but still shows that delay and rise/fall times are for current rather than voltage:


« Last Edit: August 29, 2023, 04:17:55 AM by davekni »
David Knierim

Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2023, 04:49:49 PM »
The bricks were the problem! After receiving new ones of the type SKM200GB12E4, building them in and testing, everything works. Phase lead is at around 1us and the coil runns on 400A OCD on static loads. Good thing that this problem is solved but as always, the next one is just around the corner :/

Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2024, 08:26:01 PM »
Just some more informations about the fake bricks I bought a while back:

I cracked one open today and removed its (white) IGBT jelly to reveal the two dies as well as the body diodes. I'm anything but and expert when it comes to the internal structure of power modules but you might see something odd or completely normal.
I find the little bond wires or rather the jelly underneath them suspicious as it is transparent. So we have two types of gels, a white and a transparent one.
 I'd conclude that someone used whatever IGBT module, removed the gel along with some bond wires (that are missing) and just placed it in a new case, filled it up with this white gel and sold it as a SKM200GB128D.

(Note that the transparent gel is only underneath the bond wires where it is hard to get out of without damaging the wires.)




I'd be interested in some more information on this toppic so feel free to share your expertise  :D

Attachment: A brick weighs 266g while the datasheet calls for 325g!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2024, 04:42:43 PM by Felix M. »

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2024, 12:07:11 AM »
What always amazes me about these Chinese fakes is that it demonstrates how cheap Chinese labor is. Its cheap enough to disassemble one part and and insert another part and still make a profit.
Steve White
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Offline Felix M.

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2024, 01:01:27 AM »
Since I have three more of those as well as a nice pulse capacitor bank, I'll test the explosive properies of silicone in the future  ;D

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Re: Chinese branded IGBTs
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2024, 01:01:27 AM »

 


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post FIRST DRSSTC SKM400GB128D OCD SETTING
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 02:47:18 PM
post Re: Eliminating discharges from a SSTC
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Alex_1996
July 03, 2024, 01:35:24 PM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
July 03, 2024, 02:19:03 AM
post Re: Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
verliebt_in_neukölln17
July 03, 2024, 01:19:50 AM
post Coax cable for DRSSTC interrupter?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Simranjit
July 02, 2024, 11:29:18 PM
post Re: Is this a good pulse experiment capacitor?
[Capacitor Banks]
Mads Barnkob
July 02, 2024, 09:59:07 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
July 02, 2024, 09:55:53 PM
post Re: Capacitor wiring for single phase 240 to split phase (180 degree) 240v
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
July 02, 2024, 09:44:55 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 07:51:37 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
July 02, 2024, 06:14:07 PM
post Is this a good pulse experiment capacitor?
[Capacitor Banks]
FPS
July 02, 2024, 06:02:38 PM
post Re: LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
July 02, 2024, 11:37:46 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:22:10 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
July 02, 2024, 05:16:30 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
drobotk
July 01, 2024, 11:50:12 PM
post Re: Restoring a Rogowski coil calibrator
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:48:53 PM
post Uses for Weston's Little Bee probe
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:40:59 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:09:42 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
June 30, 2024, 06:49:45 AM
post Re: Restoring a Rogowski coil calibrator
[Capacitor Banks]
davekni
June 30, 2024, 03:57:13 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
June 30, 2024, 03:19:40 AM

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