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Messages - davekni
1
« on: September 22, 2023, 09:51:07 PM »
I believe I need to resolve this noise issue before proceeding. It's disturbing all my readings. Yes, I'd agree. Most of the scope traces can be interpreted even with noise present. However, whatever is causing noise may be interfering with circuit operation at times. Noise may be high frequency oscillation of some part of your circuit, which is aliasing with scope sample frequency. Would be good to expand horizontal way out (low time/div) when looking at noise. Try scoping ground on your board. Both probe ground clip and probe tip connected to ground. You may pick up enough of the noise that way. Presuming so, noise is much easier to see when by itself and not on top of some other signal. Wow, once again you got it right! My chip is actually the HCT14. But I have some HC14 too. I'll make the change and test the result.
About the difference between the two, I found it briefly in a search that: The basic difference is that HCT14 are designed to work at lower inputs (5v) and HC are rated for higher inputs (15v). Neither can handle 15V. Only the original 74C14, not HC nor HCT. Both HC and HCT work well at 5V. The difference is that HCT is designed for logic inputs coming from conventional TTL with input thresholds specified as being between 0.8V and 2.0V. HC is expecting to be driven by other CMOS logic at the same 5V supply. How does this affect the feedback operation? Because HCT input thresholds are low, it takes a short time for the input capacitor to charge up the rising threshold, but a long time for it to discharge back below the falling threshold. It seems easier to me to just get the right ic instead trying the resistor opiton. Agree. Even 74HC14 threshold voltages are typically somewhat lower than centered around 2.5V, though not nearly as low as 74HCT14 thresholds. If you want to be perfectionist, a resistor still helps. A higher value will work with the correct 74HC14 chip.
2
« on: September 22, 2023, 06:26:32 AM »
Also how does the low voltage end of the coil have enough voltage to arc anyways? "Low" voltage end of secondary is low because it is grounded. If not grounded, it is no longer low voltage. edit: if i dont ground the plates the gdt gets corona discharges. If current can't return to ground, it tries to get there through line hot and neutral, through GDT, or any other path it can find. Much better to tie to ground. Line ground is intended to pass current to ground. Line hot and neutral are not intended for that purpose. But short after i have realized that the ground wire (which is connected to ground plane by a tape) was getting arcs from the ground plane and it caught on fire. I think you are referring to ground wire coming from bottom of secondary. Presuming so, some of that current is flowing to that counterpoise sheet and not all the way back to line ground. The larger your counterpoise, the more of the current it will take and less will pass on to line ground. What should i do? Use a large counterpoise for low side of secondary. Connect it to line ground as well. Clamp or screw wires to aluminum, not just tape. BTW, I had a grounding problem with my QCW coil at last weekend's Science Festival here. Used a clip lead (test lead) for grounding bottom of secondary. Alligator clip at one end of lead was corroded, so made a bad connection. Secondary low side voltage increased enough to arc through the bad connection, but also arced to bottom of primary coil, charring insulation there.
3
« on: September 22, 2023, 06:05:35 AM »
If I'm understanding your pictures correctly, one issue shows up there: Shield for driver should be connected to ground including driver ECB ground. Bottom of secondary should not connect to shield, not until after passing through CT. I measure the frequency via pin 4 of the 74HC14, but in my last tests I was unable to read the signal (Likewise, I can't measure the signal from the interrupter), in addition to being very noisy signal. Not sure what you mean by "unable to read the signal". Noise is unexpected. Is the H-bridge powered for this measurement of 74HC14-4? Or is this with only logic powered? Measuring GS of the two IGBTs with just the logic part powered, these were the readings: I don't understand why they are so different. That is more different than I'd expect, but perhaps reasonable. 74HC14 input threshold voltage is usually a bit below 2.5V (below half of supply voltage). Your chips must be quite a bit below 2.5V. Are you certain your chip isn't 74HCT14? This duty cycle error (not 50%) can be fixed by adding another resistor, either across D2 or from 74HC14-1 to ground. That lowers the input signal level to be centered around 74HC14 input logic threshold. Resistor value needs to be adjusted to get 50% duty cycle.
4
« on: September 22, 2023, 05:51:59 AM »
Capacitor units are 'F' for Farads. Inductor units are 'H' for Henries. You are asking about 100uF capacitor.
For most uses, the lower ESR of ceramic capacitors is better. There are a few occasions where circuits rely on the ESR of electrolytic capacitors, especially for feedback stability of voltage regulators.
Ceramic capacitors have their own issues. Z5U and Y5V dielectrics are worthless unless used strictly at room temperature. Those and X5R and X7R often have severe capacitance reduction as DC voltage increases, sometimes down by 90% by rated voltage. Actual capacitance in use may be far less than you expect.
5
« on: September 22, 2023, 05:40:29 AM »
Impressive performance for this small coil! I've also upgraded the IGBTs to the highest current ones I found for a price I was willing to pay: FGH75T65SQD The datasheet output characteristic plot only goes to 300A, but especially at 19V on the gate it seems like they can handle MUCH more. Even at 175° and 300A per IGBT I'd say desaturation isn't a problem. I'd agree that desaturation is unlikely to be an issue. Transient thermal impedance is more likely limiting factor, especially with 1ms on times. These are nice fast IGBTs. As normal, fast comes with the trade-off of increased Vce on-state voltage drop.
6
« on: September 22, 2023, 05:22:04 AM »
I'm guessing these output DC, so like typical CRT flyback transformers. If they output AC, that would make them much more useful.
7
« on: September 22, 2023, 05:14:26 AM »
Nice performance! But, now I'm hitting OCD constantly at 150A. I'm not sure if my IGBTs can handle more, but they're rated for 150A continuous and are getting just warm enough for it to be noticeable after a minute at around 2BPS. Maybe they can take a bit more. These IGBTs can likely handle more current, 200A or a bit more. However, increasing current requires care: First, phase lead and dead time need to be well adjusted. Second, improved head dissipation during bursts. Package immediately under die is likely getting much hotter during each burst. To handle this, add a large copper heat spreader under each IGBT with good thermal compound between IGBT and spreader. Apply mounting force over IGBT die rather than at screw holes. Insulating pads between copper heat spreaders and heat sink.
8
« on: September 21, 2023, 04:55:53 AM »
Hello, I made a huge discovery, the whole thing works fine when I touch the 2nd or 3rd pin of the AD8561ANZ ultra fast comparator that I used instead of the lt1001 with the tip of a oscilloscope probe Now I am confused as to why does this solve the problem and what should I change on the board to make it work by itself With red is where I probed and it stared working (the ground lead was not connected to anything) Scope probe and lead cable are acting as an antenna. You are picking up enough either random noise or more likely voltage from secondary. That pickup makes extra driver output transitions to start oscillation. Three options come to mind for fixing this without a scope probe: 1) Add an antenna. NOT recommended. Hard to control what phase lead will be or how much signal may be picked up and over-drive comparitor input. 2) Fix the issue(s) preventing normal startup. I've already twice suggested next scope measurements to take, so won't repeat here. 3) Modify your driver to be self-oscillating. I described this for UD2.7 in third paragraph of this post: https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1373.msg10197#msg10197
9
« on: September 20, 2023, 06:05:54 AM »
Sadly I am sure the gdt is proper ferrite, I have used this type of core in my 200khz sstc and it was fine, here is a link of it Material is fine. How many turns are on your GDT? Core is rather small for 120kHz. I'm guessing core is saturating after 5us. That should be just enough for 120kHz (4us half-cycle). Not much margin, but probably not the main issue. Also, I think the output returning to 0 was some kind of weird glitch with that cheap oscilloscope, my trusty analog scope doesn't show it falling, but staying in the middle Puzzling, but I'll ignore that one capture showing quick return to Vbus-. You still might need bleed resistors to keep half-bridge output at half way point. Without scope load, if upper IGBT happens to have slightly higher leakage current, output may drift high. Initial start pulse tries to pull it high. If output is already high, no initial change, so no feedback. I still suggest scoping UD2.7 51ohm CT burden resistor during that startup pulse, then half-bridge output.
10
« on: September 20, 2023, 05:49:15 AM »
1. Is there a way to measure the output voltage? There are hard ways to get somewhat accurate at least for the beginning as breakout starts. Hydron placed a scope on top of the top load to measure charge: https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=117.0#msg780I've done somewhat similar experiments using home-made fiber-isolated scope probes: https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1263.msg9259#msg9259 https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1950.msg14588#msg14588However, you can get reasonably close by measuring current in ground lead to bottom of secondary. If top load is reasonably large, electric field will be somewhat uniform down secondary, so secondary winding capacitance is a small contribution compared to top load capacitance. Current in secondary (amplitude and frequency) and secondary inductance are enough to calculate voltage. Measurement will be even more accurate if a scaled version of primary current is added to secondary current measurement. Scale factor is mutual_inductance / secondary_inductance. This adjusts for voltage created by transformer action from primary to secondary. Inductive drop across secondary due to secondary current is generally a lot larger, but adding in scaled primary current may change result by 10% or even 20%. Resulting current (from which voltage is calculated) may be higher or lower depending on relative phase of primary and secondary currents. One way to add in scaled primary current: Add a third primary CT output stage (or entire third CT) with its own adjustable burden resistor (or fixed burden resistor followed by POT to reduce voltage). Wire this CT output in series with secondary CT output. (Secondary CT of course has its own burden resistor.) To adjust scale factor (POT on primary current): Run coil with secondary shorted (top load wired to ground). Adjust POT until sum of the two CT outputs is zero. Swap polarity of one CT if zero can't be reached. Will never be exactly zero due to phase shift in CTs, but should be closer than secondary current alone. 2. What affects the output voltage more. The length of the pulse or the frequency of the pulses? For typical DRSSTCs, top voltage drops as arc grows. Arc lowers secondary Q and makes a better breakout point. Highest voltage is when breakout starts. Voltage will be higher with shorter or no breakout point. Fast voltage ramp also increases peak voltage. Frequency also matters. Higher frequency reduces breakout voltage. However, high frequency and low voltage can make long arcs. My normal DRSSTC at 80kHz and ~600kV initial peak voltage makes ~2m arcs when tuned for music, 3m when optimized for arc length. My 450kHz QCW coil is about 40kV peak and makes arcs in the 2 to 2.5m range, perhaps slightly longer when I push the pulse width. For QCW coils, voltage may increase slightly as arc grows and more voltage is needed to overcome arc resistance.
11
« on: September 20, 2023, 05:24:44 AM »
I dont use any bleed resistor except on the bus capacitor Then I'm puzzled as to why half-bridge output returns quickly to 0V (to Vbus-) shortly after a burst. (This is from first scope capture of reply #2 above.) Only explanations I'm thinking of at the moment are either there is some glitch in low-side IGBT Vge or the low-side IGBT is partially damaged (leakage current). With no feedback transformer/signal generator, this is the startup pulse that I can measure on the gates of the igbt, is this normal? I'll guess the probe is really 10x, so 20V/div. Even then it does not look normal. Initial -24V pulse looks somewhat reasonable, but too short. Subsequent ring appears clipped, more square than sine wave, and too high frequency for your 122kHz coil. Are you sure GDT is on ferrite core and not powdered iron? It may work barely well enough for operation at 122kHz, but not for the initial start transition. Typically the non-igbt end of a half bridge tank circuit is connected to a capacitive voltage divider, not Vbus- Agree. But I don't think this is a significant cause of issues showing up here.
12
« on: September 20, 2023, 05:07:10 AM »
I reviewed the video footage and i can see some sort of arcing between bus + and -. and between the igbt legs. this is super weird since 320v i thought way too low spark anything. The IGBT etc. arcs are likely a result of IGBT failure rather than a cause. When IGBTs (or FETs etc.) fail shorted, sudden current burns/melts leads and interconnect. Arcs are very high current and low voltage, like arc welding. That is what happened when my QCW IGBTs failed a few months ago. Also, you wrote that leaving a radius gap between both ends of the coil and topload/ground is a good idea. (I guess to not block magnetic waves) If i don't do that, will it cause a problem or will it only decrease my output? Yes, to avoid blocking magnetic field. Removing that gap will increase secondary frequency a bit (reduce secondary inductance) and increase secondary loss a bit (lower secondary Q). Neither will be large changes. Maybe due to too much thermal paste or debris under my thermal pad both MOSFETs arced to the heatsink. Looks likely. I saw several similar failures recently at work on 60V FETs when silver thermal compound bridged gap from tab (drain) to source or gate leads. There are now thermal compounds that are non-conductive electrically and as good as silver compounds for thermal conductivity.
13
« on: September 19, 2023, 06:29:00 AM »
When this was constructed it was first sprayed with spray on urethane, wound, and then multiple layers of the same spray to fill any gaps over the coil. Then finally coated in a 2 pot epoxy.
Unfortunately I will need to rebuild the coil. This is almost exactly how I built my DRSSTC secondary. (Except for later addition of several more layers of epoxy to reduce racing sparks.) So far it has worked fine, 4 years of occasional use. Perhaps depends on particular spray on urethane, on wire gauge, or some other factor. My secondary is 24AWG. Good luck with rebuild. Not sure what to suggest as being better.
14
« on: September 19, 2023, 06:15:40 AM »
Some quick scope shots, this is the halfbridge output working when the driver is fed a signal I fed it 170 vac on the bus at some point and nothing blew up so the halfbridge is switching right Do you have a bleed resistor pulling half-bridge output low? Something is causing output to end up at 0V after enable pulse ends. Looks like Vbus is 60V for this scope capture. Is that accurate? Is Vbus 60V for the current transformer output capture too? but the really strange output is this "starting pulse" that I measured on the gdt when it has no feedback connected, to me it looks inverted, how is this possible? Where on GDT are you probing? Is this low-side Vge (or Vgs if using FETs)? If so, it looks appropriate, other than possible CT inversion issue as flyingperson23 mentioned. What does half-bridge output look like? What does voltage across UD2.7 51-ohm resistor look like? If this is low-side Vge, then high side Vge should be a matching positive pulse. That should make a low-to-high transition on half-bridge output. That output transition should cause current that should trigger another transition.
15
« on: September 19, 2023, 05:56:13 AM »
If i'm correct, Higher coupling should be better for QCW coils as long as theres no flashovers? Yes. Higher coupling allows good power transfer over a wider frequency span, so performs better as arc capacitance reduces secondary frequency. Higher coupling also separates upper and lower pole frequencies farther. For a given uncoupled resonant frequency, higher coupling will increase upper pole frequency and reduce lower pole frequency. Most QCW coils operate at upper pole frequency. Increasing coupling without any other changes will increase frequency some. Higher frequency is generally better for QCW performance, presuming your H-bridge can handle the increase.
16
« on: September 18, 2023, 06:07:25 AM »
This is the signal on the input pins of the uccs That looks like a great 671kHz square wave. As NyaaX_X said, JavaTC can tell you if that is expected frequency for your secondary and top load. If so, then coil is running, just without enough power. If JavaTC indicates a lower frequency, then the antenna is picking up the wrong signal and/or phase is inverted.
17
« on: September 17, 2023, 05:29:59 AM »
all unused pins of 74hc14 connected to gnd. Only unused inputs should be connected to ground. Leave unused outputs unconnected. With inputs grounded, outputs will be high. Grounding them will short outputs and make 74HC14 chip get hot. interrupter output I'd suggest testing at much lower duty cycle than shown 50%. Reduces risk of something burning out. Then scope GDT inputs (driver outputs) while trying to run in feedback mode. Scope antenna too. These scope traces should give some idea of what the issue may be.
18
« on: September 17, 2023, 05:19:47 AM »
Loaded output still has a weird jump on one MOSFET driver. If this indeed from Miller Capacitance, that peak should reduce dramatically when the bridge is at mains voltage? Would you expect the traces to be asymmetric? The spikes are only on of the outputs. This capture does look less like Miller capacitance, more like driver chip ground bounce. Loading may be adding just enough additional ground current spike to cause trouble. Perhaps one chip has slightly higher inductance in ground path or has slightly faster output transition or more shoot-through current. Previous loaded captures may have been ground bounce too. They looked more like flat spots than spikes, which is typical of Miller capacitance.
19
« on: September 17, 2023, 05:13:58 AM »
I have some smaller 200v 680u caps, and was wondering if theres anything wrong with using the smaller caps as a doubler, and putting the big caps in parallel on the output. Like this. That will work great.
20
« on: September 16, 2023, 06:25:04 AM »
I tried using a 4.7k pull down resistor, and the GDT output looked good unloaded, but loaded, something was still wrong. (I think still the same issue as my original post, just to a lesser degree? I'm not sure through what mechanism the solution identified in the next paragraph works if it isn't the same issue.) I'd guess that the 4.7k pull down resistors are working fine. Loaded waveform is likely due to IGBT miller capacitance loading driver chip outputs. However, it could be that 4.7k isn't enough pull-down. Any ~2k resistors around? Or enough 4.7k resistors to parallel 2 or 3 for each pull-down? I found a single 4700nf capacitor to throw across one of the 4.7ks, and voila! Did you mean 4700pF? Even if so, that is still large. Probably OK when used without a pull-down resistor. I was suggesting a much smaller capacitor combined with a pull-down resistor. However, combining the two does require getting capacitance correct to avoid driver chip inputs glitching too far below ground. The rising edge of the waveform looks pretty good! Maybe a little over damped? Once the input is clean enough to not glitch due to driver chip ground bounce, any remaining characteristics of driver outputs are due to driver output impedance and load impedance (GDT and IGBT gates). The high frequency ringing before the output goes high: is that a problem? Probably not an issue. For such relatively small ringing, it is difficult to know if it is real or magnetic pickup in loop from scope probe ground lead to probe tip. I don't have another capacitor to check if that's a symptom of the other driver not having the capacitor across it's resistor yet. Probably best to have both channels modified to be the same. There can be some advantage to a slight delay in one driver relative to the other. However, any of these fixes (caps or pull-down resistors) will affect rising and falling delays differently. If you have any lower-value resistors (ie. 2k), I'd guess that to be a more reliable fix than capacitors alone. (If you have extra 4.7k resistors, two in parallel for each pull-down would be better than just one each.) The pull-down resistor solution should move duty cycle closer to 50%.
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[Sell / Buy / Trade]
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All Science September 19, 2023, 07:06:39 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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RoamingD September 19, 2023, 03:57:15 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 19, 2023, 03:48:23 PM
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Re: Measuring electric voltage in a Tesla coil
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 19, 2023, 03:33:06 PM
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What to drive this UY30 transformer?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
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FPS September 19, 2023, 09:06:16 AM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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RoamingD September 19, 2023, 07:53:34 AM
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Re: Measuring electric voltage in a Tesla coil
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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omrid13 September 19, 2023, 07:14:57 AM
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Re: Enamel on secondary breaking down?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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davekni September 19, 2023, 06:29:00 AM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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davekni September 19, 2023, 06:15:40 AM
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Re: My QCW DRSSTC, small questions.
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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davekni September 19, 2023, 05:56:13 AM
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Re: Measuring electric voltage in a Tesla coil
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 19, 2023, 05:05:57 AM
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Re: Migatronic FocusStick 161E Stick Welder Teardown
[Electronic Circuits]
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orac September 19, 2023, 04:52:30 AM
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Re: Part identification for a Esab Es300i renegade Machine
[Beginners]
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orac September 19, 2023, 04:48:02 AM
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Re: Enamel on secondary breaking down?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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orac September 19, 2023, 04:29:14 AM
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Measuring electric voltage in a Tesla coil
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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omrid13 September 19, 2023, 01:14:00 AM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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NyaaX_X September 19, 2023, 12:59:52 AM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 19, 2023, 12:45:37 AM
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Re: Interrupter pulling ct signal
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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ZakW September 18, 2023, 11:16:41 PM
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Re: Interrupter pulling ct signal
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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Egg September 18, 2023, 09:55:08 PM
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Re: My QCW DRSSTC, small questions.
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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Lucasww September 18, 2023, 08:15:37 PM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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Recep talip September 18, 2023, 07:47:21 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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RoamingD September 18, 2023, 07:46:46 PM
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Re: My QCW DRSSTC, small questions.
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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All Science September 18, 2023, 07:39:16 PM
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Re: Profdc9 Ud2.7C jumper question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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dexter September 18, 2023, 06:37:35 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 18, 2023, 06:20:30 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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RoamingD September 18, 2023, 05:01:22 PM
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Re: Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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flyingperson23 September 18, 2023, 04:29:15 PM
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Drsstc feedback startup
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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RoamingD September 18, 2023, 02:59:10 PM
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Re: My QCW DRSSTC, small questions.
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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Lucasww September 18, 2023, 10:07:22 AM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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davekni September 18, 2023, 06:07:25 AM
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Re: Anyone around with good coding skills (for the Flipper Zero)
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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ako September 17, 2023, 09:46:42 PM
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Anyone around with good coding skills (for the Flipper Zero)
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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ako September 17, 2023, 09:42:52 PM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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NyaaX_X September 17, 2023, 06:05:59 PM
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Re: What Cable Thickness for Capacitor Discharges?
[Capacitor Banks]
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MRMILSTAR September 17, 2023, 04:48:28 PM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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Recep talip September 17, 2023, 11:24:49 AM
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Re: What Cable Thickness for Capacitor Discharges?
[Capacitor Banks]
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klugesmith September 17, 2023, 07:00:02 AM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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davekni September 17, 2023, 05:29:59 AM
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Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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davekni September 17, 2023, 05:19:47 AM
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Re: My QCW DRSSTC, small questions.
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
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davekni September 17, 2023, 05:13:58 AM
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Re: First sstc is not working
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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Recep talip September 16, 2023, 09:28:50 PM
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Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
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KrisPringle September 16, 2023, 04:33:30 PM
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