Author Topic: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit  (Read 659 times)

Offline Damaged1

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Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« on: August 08, 2024, 01:13:01 AM »
Hi all! I have HV experience with SGTC's and am in the process of learning more about how circuits and their components work.

Regarding the ZVS (flyback driver): I think I have most of it down, including how and why the LC oscillates and the capacitor switches polarity, how the zener and fast diodes work, how and why the MOSFETs switch on and off, and how to factor the values of the resistors and the choke.

What I don't yet grasp is why the capacitor doesn't discharge to ground via the drain/source of the MOSFET that is on instead of sending it to the coil?

I'm sure there's some basic principal I am missing here, and would be grateful for any help understanding this.

Offline davekni

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2024, 05:13:37 AM »
Not sure that I understand your question.  Best way to understand circuit operation is through simulation.  LTSpice is my favorite free analog simulator, through there are several others.  Some are on-line.  Easier to get started, though not as powerful as LTSpice.
David Knierim

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2024, 05:57:52 AM »
Welcome.
It's good to see someone wanting to learn how and why their project works.

It would help if you paste in, or point to, a representative ZVS schematic
where we can see the capacitor and mosfets of which you speak,
and the topology of resonant inductor(s) and AC-blocking inductor(s).

It's always good practice if schematic has a unique reference designator for each component, e.g. R1 and R2, so we don't have to say "the upper 1000 ohm resistor".   It's often bad practice if IC's in schematic have pins shown in physical order instead of functional order.   The former might be nice for people who want to wire it up and _not_ learn how it works.

Offline Damaged1

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2024, 03:07:42 PM »
Thank you for the welcome and replies!

I did simulate this in Falstad, which was very helpful. I haven't done it in LTSpice yet. I bought one of those $15 driver/flyback combos from Aliexpress and it works nicely for arcs (DC output) with a modified PSU from an old PC. I decided to finally force myself to learn how to understand circuits and diagrams and how they work, which has turned out to be more engaging than I expected. One day I will move on to learning how to use a scope, and then maybe build a SSTC.

But first, there's plenty more I need to learn...

I am attaching a pic from the Falstad simulation (running the file from Doom2pro's youtube video), and also linking a pic from online for a similar circuit for component reference.

If you look at the image here, my question pertains to C1. As the voltage hits 0 in each LC oscillation cycle, kickback from L1 causes C1 to reverse bias and then either Q1 or Q2 will turn on, depending essentially on which one is closest to C1's negative bias.

For this, let's assume the negative side of C1 is at the bottom, which means Q2 is on and Q1 is off because D2 now has a path to ground and pulls the voltage from the gate of Q1. Which means the current stored in C1 now has a path to ground through the drain of Q2.

Most explanations I can find indicate the current gets trapped in the LC and simply oscillates, and I was wondering why the current from C1 doesn't just discharge through the drain of Q2 to ground instead of staying in the LC.

But, in writing this out, I think I may have gotten closer to the answer...in order for the current from C1 to get ground through the drain, it has to travel through L1. I am thinking the important aspect here is that the magnetic field of L1 is growing because the current is rushing through it to ground, and it's not that the LC circuit is holding that current so much as it's the collapse of the magnetic field in L1 when current stops flowing is really what we are after in order to reverse bias on C1 and switch the circuit?

Or, am I completely off track and the current prefers the shorter path to negative potential of C1 and flows there instead of going past it to the drain of the MOSFET? (or something else I am not thinking of yet)


 

Offline davekni

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2024, 08:27:24 PM »
Quote
I did simulate this in Falstad, which was very helpful.
Great!

Quote
Which means the current stored in C1 now has a path to ground through the drain of Q2.
This may be the key misconception.  Capacitors "store" charge, not current.  Inductors "store" current.

Quote
Most explanations I can find indicate the current gets trapped in the LC and simply oscillates, and I was wondering why the current from C1 doesn't just discharge through the drain of Q2 to ground instead of staying in the LC.
Perhaps another misconception.  Current flows through a device from one node to another.  It is not possible to discharge a capacitor by contacting only one terminal.  Removing charge from a capacitor requires current flow from one capacitor lead to the other (from one circuit node to another).  Q2 pulls low side of C1 to 0V (ground) potential.  Top side of C1 charges up due to "stored" current in L1.  Once L1 current is depleted, C1 top reaches maximum voltage.  Its "stored" charge and resulting voltage starts L1 current flowing in opposite direction, from top lead of L1 to bottom lead.  As current builds up in L1, that L1 current discharges C1.  When top of C1 gets close to 0V, that completes one half-cycle of oscillation.  Transistors switch, and other half-cycle occurs in the same way with top of C1 at 0V and bottom charging and then discharging due to L1 current.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 08:32:34 PM by davekni »
David Knierim

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2024, 09:10:09 PM »
Dave said it very well.

This comment is to call out an irregularity in previously posted schematic.
The negative supply is shown connected to source of Q1 and drain of Q2.  I hope your board isn't actually wired that way, because the circuit is intended to be symmetric and the devices are generally unsymmetric.
Good chance to practice flipping or rotating the symbol in your schematic editor.

Also when your comment refers to "ground", nobody should assume that means negative terminal of power supply.
It would be good to add a ground symbol to the schematic.   Circuit will work the same if you put the ground on positive side of power supply, but the voltages shown in simulation will all be shifted.

[edit] I'm picking on the white, refdes-annotated schematic.  Not your Falstad schematic, which has neither of the faults mentioned above, but has a center-tapped resonant inductor and a single AC-blocking choke.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2024, 09:20:33 PM by klugesmith »

Offline Damaged1

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2024, 10:08:27 PM »
Thank you again for the replies and your patience!

Just for reference, three days ago I didn't actually know the difference between a diode and a resistor, and schematics were mostly incomprehensible to me, but at this point I pretty much understand the components in this circuit and I'm closing in on the last bits of it.

And if I have this right, capacitors store charge and current is generated when charge flows through conductors like the L1 coil.

Q2 pulls low side of C1 to 0V (ground) potential.  Top side of C1 charges up due to "stored" current in L1.  Once L1 current is depleted, C1 top reaches maximum voltage. Its "stored" charge and resulting voltage starts L1 current flowing in opposite direction, from top lead of L1 to bottom lead.  As current builds up in L1, that L1 current discharges C1.  When top of C1 gets close to 0V, that completes one half-cycle of oscillation.  Transistors switch, and other half-cycle occurs in the same way with top of C1 at 0V and bottom charging and then discharging due to L1 current.

The part I am stuck on is that exact point when L1 starts flowing from top lead to bottom (towards the 0V point at the drain on Q2) - does that current flow into the bottom of C1 instead of the mutual 0V drain of Q2? Or does it go to both and it doesn't matter because C1 continues to charge fully due to the incoming voltage to the LC circuit from the power supply?

You mention a capacitor discharge requires a closed circuit from positive to the negative side of the capacitor - does that cause the current from L1 to preferentially go to the bottom of C1?


The negative supply is shown connected to source of Q1 and drain of Q2.  I hope your board isn't actually wired that way, because the circuit is intended to be symmetric and the devices are generally unsymmetric.
Good chance to practice flipping or rotating the symbol in your schematic editor.

[edit] I'm picking on the white, refdes-annotated schematic.  Not your Falstad schematic, which has neither of the faults mentioned above, but has a center-tapped resonant inductor and a single AC-blocking choke.


I can remove the bad schematic, but can't edit it as I grabbed that as an image from the web to post here because it had the components labelled and the LC circuit is the type I was asking about. I actually didn't notice they had put the drain of Q2 to ground - good callout!

And I haven't build my own device yet, as I want to understand the "how" better. From what I can see, the cheapo ZVS/flyback I bought is wired like the Falstad schematic, which I can't take credit for as it was built by a youtuber (Doom2pro), but that diagram is what I have been studying the most.



Offline davekni

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2024, 11:33:05 PM »
Quote
Just for reference, three days ago I didn't actually know the difference between a diode and a resistor, and schematics were mostly incomprehensible to me, but at this point I pretty much understand the components in this circuit and I'm closing in on the last bits of it.
Amazing progress!  But there is plenty of more learning ahead.  One or two answers here aren't likely to clear everything up for you.

Quote
The part I am stuck on is that exact point when L1 starts flowing from top lead to bottom (towards the 0V point at the drain on Q2) - does that current flow into the bottom of C1 instead of the mutual 0V drain of Q2?
That is where simulation is ideal.  Currents are difficult to probe in real circuits, but easy to probe in simulation.  Current flowing from L1 top to node P1 must equal all the currents leaving node P1.  There is no simple formula to say how much current flows to all the other components connected to node P1.  Plot each current in simulation to find out.

Have fun learning and experimenting!
David Knierim

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Re: Capacitor discharge in a ZVS circuit
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2024, 11:33:05 PM »

 


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