Author Topic: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module  (Read 3037 times)

Offline michaelrcolton

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Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« on: January 05, 2024, 10:56:06 PM »
Hi everyone! Thank you so much for taking a look at this! I’ve made progress but I am a little bit out of my depth here. I’ve tried to include lots of detail so sorry about the length.

I am trying to source or create a very compact high voltage module for a stun gun application. Ideally, I’m hoping someone can point me to a source for the module. Barring that, I’d really appreciate help with getting my version to perform at more or less the same level as the module I’ve been working with.

I have found a module that will fit in my application. I pulled it from this little stun gun on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078353PHS


The module is pictured here. I added the + -. You can see the transformer and capacitors a little through the potting compound.


The module measures 25x18.5x9mm. In the stun gun, its discharge terminals are 5mm apart. It is fed with an 18KHz square wave at the battery voltage (so 4.2v or less depending on state of charge). It doesn’t have a feedback line, and as far as I can tell the MCU is running it without any current monitoring or other feedback (it does measure the battery voltage and warn when it’s too low)

Buying these stun guns for their modules is not going to work, I need to be able to get them in volume and at a lower cost. I have tried to find the module (or a similar one) on aliexpress, amazon, and ebay with no luck. Finding physically larger ones is easy enough, but won’t work in my application. If any of you know where I could buy this (or smaller) module, or new places I could look, or vendors that I could talk to, I would be very grateful!

Knowing that sourcing the module might not be possible. I’m trying to reverse engineer it. I was able to get a 3D X-Ray of the module (cross your eyes to see in 3D!) In the first two images you can see the transformer at the bottom, between the two blobs at the bottom is the diode, at the top you can see two capacitors in series. The two blobs in the middle connect to a high value resistor (not visible)


Here is a top view and side view of the transformer showing the shape of the windings and core, and a side view showing the gap in the core as well as the different windings.


After the X-Ray, I dremeled away the potting compound to learn more about it. Here’s the schematic I came up with, as best I’ve been able to determine (as well as some notes to myself).


Here’s a cutaway of the transformer in the module (in all these pictures that little scale is 1mm long, with each division being 0.01mm):

The primary appears to be 13 turns of 0.43mm diameter wire.

Secondary appears to be ~0.05mm. I counted 419 (give or take) in one bundle, 4 of those, so 1676ish turns on the secondary. So 13:1676

It’s got a gapped core. I can get measurements on that if that’s helpful.

Sourcing the right transformer has been problematic. If I understand correctly, I want a gapped core transformer with a very high turn ratio (but I don’t know enough to say more than that). Here is the closest one I’ve been able to find sources for https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2251832605587379.html (and here it is in a circuit for more info: https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805826404196.html ) In both listings, be sure to hit the “View More” button. Actual specs on it are hard to come by.

Here is a cutaway of that transformer. It got damaged a little in the process.

It’s got a primary and feedback winding. Primary looks like 20 turns of ~0.48mm diameter wire, feedback is 26 turns of  ~0.32mm diameter.

Secondary looks to be 248 x 6 = 1488 turns of ~0.06mm wire. So 20:1488.

This transformer also has a gapped core. I got an X-Ray of this one too, but it’s only 2D and I only got a screenshot of it, so it’s not quite as useful, I think.


I have assembled a few variations on the reverse engineered design (changing things like number and values of capacitors, orientation and type of diode). Pictured here (forgive the construction). But the performance (number, size, and sound of sparks generated) lags behind what the module can do (consistent, rapid, scary, noisy sparks of, say 5-10mm.) and is sometimes inconsistent (sometimes no sparks at all, or weak and intermittent sparks).


To be clear, it does kinda work so I don’t think I’m far off, I’m just not sure how to get it to work well and do it consistently.

I have managed to successfully recreate the square wave to power these on my own PCB (though I would love a little bit of insight into what parameters are important for best performance, I’m guessing low RDSon from the FET, and how does one determine the best frequency and duty cycle?) Since this transformer has a feedback line, can I use that to improve performance? If so, how do I want to do that? I have a microcontroller running the PCB, so I could trigger some behavior based on the feedback line, but I’m not sure what to look for.

So again, if anyone can help me source these modules, that would be amazing. Otherwise I’d love any help I can get on getting my design to perform better.

Any other insights, like, what type and value of capacitors and diodes to use, relevant math to work this stuff out, would be helpful.

Finally, If there are resources you’d recommend so I can better educate myself, that would be amazing. Books, online classes, etc. would be great.

Thank you in advance for any help or guidance you can offer.

Let me know if there are any measurements that would be helpful. I have a 40KV probe for my multimeter and a way to connect it to my 4-Channel 200MHz oscilloscope. I have captured waveforms from the module and my circuit this way. (If I am not mistaken, the output of the high voltage module should be floating, but I haven’t dared measure the low voltage side at the same time, just in case I’m mistaken there and end up putting 10s of KV across my expensive scope.)

I don’t have an LCR meter (the multimeter can take basic measurements of those values though) and I don’t have a multimeter capable of four-wire resistance measurements. I can purchase either or both of those if that’s what it takes to make this work. I do have a VNA that can measure some of these values, with effort.

I also have a thermal camera, spectrum analyzer, and microscope, if any of those things might be useful here.

[edit: scaled down some of the images]
« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 11:03:01 PM by michaelrcolton »

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2024, 08:21:22 PM »
No response huh?

Any thoughts on why? Have I asked too much? Was it too long? Did I post in the wrong place?

I will add this though, I would be willing to pay for your time to figure this problem out. Reach out if you would be willing to help.

Thanks everyone.

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2024, 08:53:39 PM »
I'm just guessing here but I don't think any member of this forum wants to be involved with the design of a stun gun.
Steve White
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Retired electrical engineer

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2024, 09:21:38 PM »
Thank you for replying. That's a valid concern I guess. Though I suppose most other things on this site are equally, if not more, dangerous.

I just throw this out, if it helps: I take full responsibility for this design, its use, etc. I am only asking for guidance on the circuit and will not hold anyone who helps me in any way responsible for anything.

If no one is comfortable helping with the design itself, how about pointing me in another direction? Books, videos, etc. that might help me figure it out on my own?

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2024, 09:24:22 PM »
Again, not sure this will make any difference, but it will undergo any required regulatory scrutiny, and will only be sold through legal channels. Most importantly, it is designed, in particular, to help women deter physical and sexual assault. It's an idea that I think will do good in the world and I'm proud to be working on it.

Offline NyaaX_X

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2024, 06:37:42 AM »
If you are making a "weapon" ... please check the law and don't do anything illegal. High voltage devices are dangerous. If you cannot proof yours won't harm or kill anyone while you are using is. That is better to do not make it. A shunt gun is made for acting on living body.

Voltage rating is important. I guess.

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2024, 09:41:28 PM »
NyaaX_X, I am aware of the legal issues and aware of the risks involved in high voltage electronics, thank you. This is going to be a product and will go through the required testing to ensure it is as safe as other stun guns. It is being developed in a location where stun guns are legal, and will only be sold in places where stun guns are legal. I appreciate everyone's concern. Thank you again.


Offline Luca c.

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2024, 11:23:28 PM »
I don't want to be unkind, but may I ask why you want to produce something like that on a scale? currently, on the market there are plenty of these Chinese modules at low prices and high numbers, like the one you extracted the coil from, so what do you want to change from that? is there any particular feature you would add that would make it more original?
also, did you make the 3d X-ray photo? what apparatus did you use?

Offline NyaaX_X

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2024, 01:32:22 AM »
And I am curious about which diodes did you use in this project.

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2024, 01:36:32 AM »
Hi Luca, you didn't come across as unkind. It's a fair question. I appreciate it.

I've been hired to design it, it isn't my product. I'm not free to go into detail about what makes it better than existing stun guns, but do believe it is better and has the potential to protect people from violent attacks.

I would be happy with using the same module these other stun guns use, but I can't find a source for them (that's actually the main thing I am asking for in the post)

Regarding the X-Ray, I do work for a local dentist and he scanned it with his CBCT machine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_beam_computed_tomography). Very cool. I would play with that thing all day if I could.

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2024, 02:43:23 AM »
Oops, I didn't see your question NyaaX_X.

Right now I am using this diode: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/good-ark-semiconductor/GSR5000/21073622
But also ordered a few of these: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/good-ark-semiconductor/GSR3000/21073452 and https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/smc-diode-solutions/R2000F/5993438

Given the desired arc length of ~5mm, if I understand correctly, I'll need about 5KV. Which suggests only the first one even has a chance of working (and without any margin.) So just now I put another in series. Seems maybe a little better (before, it would sometimes work okay and sometimes not, so I'll keep testing it and see if it's more consistent than before).

Are there better diodes you'd recommend?

Thank you.

Offline NyaaX_X

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2024, 04:37:14 AM »
I think.... That's it. Electric shocks are too fast to avoid harming creatures. If too weak, the effect of defensing won't enough and even excite the enemy. But if too powerful, the victim probably couldn't contrl theirself to keep attacking the bad guys and lead the accident.

In the other hand. And I think for this circuit. You could find lot of imformations by searching the key word of the components you have seen in your samples.

==========          ==========          ==========
And here is a webpage from electroboom about the shock pain.
https://www.electroboom.com/?p=688

^^^ IF IT AGAINST THE FORUM RULE. PLEASE DELETE MY POST. ^^^

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2024, 06:50:42 AM »
Thank you, I'll take a look at that.

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2024, 04:50:48 AM »
Applause for the x-ray stereograms. They're the first I've seen.

It might be fun to present them in anaglyph format, instead of side-by-side pictures.
Without special optics for viewing, side-by-side format is challenging when the images are bigger than one's eye spacing.   

[edit] of course anaglyph-viewing glasses count as special optics, but I've got lots of them around.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2024, 04:54:19 AM by klugesmith »

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2024, 11:01:52 PM »
@klugesmith I'm glad you like them. The software (Free: Amide https://amide.sourceforge.net/) I got for viewing the X-Rays (called Dicom files) is able to do the stereograms in real time as you move the model around. It's really fun. I don't have a problem with the spacing, but maybe I have unusually wide spaced eyes? 0 _____ 0 (you can also zoom out in your browser)

The files are pretty large, but if anyone's interested I can probably make them available. (Also, the software does take a little getting used to, FYI)

Offline michaelrcolton

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Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2024, 07:04:07 PM »
Well, I'm happy to say I figured out the manufacturer for this great little HV module (and many others too). It's a company called Tianwang (Jiangsu Tianwang Solar Technology Factory)

The particular part is https://www.tw-highvoltagegenerator.com/high-voltage-generator/ignitiion-module/1502-dc-high-voltage-generator.html but they have lots of other products that I imagine will be useful to this community.

Developing my own module was fun, but ultimately using this one is going to perform better while costing less and being less work to produce.

Thanks everyone!

High Voltage Forum

Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2024, 07:04:07 PM »

 


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February 09, 2024, 06:45:46 PM
post Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
michaelrcolton
February 08, 2024, 07:04:07 PM
post ESAB Bantam TBH 140 Welder Restoration
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Mads Barnkob
February 08, 2024, 06:47:35 PM
post Re: Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
FPS
February 08, 2024, 12:27:47 AM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
February 07, 2024, 09:49:11 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
NyaaX_X
February 07, 2024, 04:48:02 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 07, 2024, 08:17:37 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
February 06, 2024, 10:51:35 PM
post Re: OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Mads Barnkob
February 06, 2024, 07:29:29 PM
post Re: Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
MRMILSTAR
February 05, 2024, 05:18:33 AM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
February 04, 2024, 09:16:25 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 04, 2024, 09:13:36 PM
post Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 09:00:30 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 08:56:14 PM
post Re: OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Da_Stier
February 04, 2024, 08:18:01 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
February 04, 2024, 08:04:36 PM
post OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Da_Stier
February 04, 2024, 07:56:55 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Lucasww
February 04, 2024, 08:45:53 AM
post Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 12:56:52 AM
post Re: looking for a pll sstc schematic with gate driver ic.
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
yourboi
February 03, 2024, 07:01:12 PM
post Re: SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
February 03, 2024, 08:04:29 AM
post Re: SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 03, 2024, 06:01:12 AM
post Re: is there a standard pinout of optical audio output connectors?
[Electronic Circuits]
Rafft
February 02, 2024, 05:04:44 PM
post SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
February 02, 2024, 08:34:56 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
klugesmith
February 01, 2024, 07:03:41 PM
post Does anyone have a 3d print form for a spiral primary on 4" pvc?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
yourboi
February 01, 2024, 06:23:45 PM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Mads Barnkob
February 01, 2024, 07:53:53 AM

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