Author Topic: QCW questions  (Read 28731 times)

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2022, 08:12:30 AM »
Thanks David

it has been a fun long journey .

anyways my current topload is 4" minorDia x 12.5" majorDia.

I would like to make this look smaller. I have been running numbers on topload capacitance calculator.

4" × 12.5" = 13.851pF
vs
2.26" × 6.27" = 6.9899pF , 2 stacked = 14pF

would they 'be the same' ?

meanwhile ill go check javatc

edit: short answer = NOT
« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 08:23:56 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2022, 07:25:54 PM »
Quote
would they 'be the same' ?

meanwhile ill go check javatc
When paralleling capacitors in electronic circuits, capacitances do add.  Electric fields are primarily between capacitor plates contained within each part.  When electric fields overlap as in the two toploads, capacitances no longer add.

Quote
anyways my current topload is 4" minorDia x 12.5" majorDia.

I would like to make this look smaller. I have been running numbers on topload capacitance calculator.
This might start another long journey.   As you've found, smaller topload has smaller capacitance.  Either frequency increases or secondary coil needs more turns.  Larger toploads can also help direct the initial arc away from the topload.  Finally, smaller topload capacitance means frequency will change more as arc length grows.  (Arc capacitance is a higher fraction of total capacitance.)  Might require higher coupling and/or other changes to handle that increased frequency range.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2022, 02:50:49 AM »
http://amasci.com/tesla/toroid1.txt 

Quote
 
Do not worry about a perfect and solid connection between all
sections of a homemade toroid. Overlapping foil with an adhesive
layer between may show a poor or non-existent connection when
measured with the VOM, but in practice the skin effect makes
this a moot point. The toriod will be function perfectly even
if all sections are not perfectly electrically bonded. 

just about to finish when I read this.

indeed there is no electrical connection between *almost all* parts of the toroid.  i have calculated this to be almost *the same* topload capacitance to the single 4×12 one.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 02:54:40 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2022, 06:00:54 AM »
Quote
Do not worry about a perfect and solid connection between all
sections of a homemade toroid. Overlapping foil with an adhesive
layer between may show a poor or non-existent connection when
measured with the VOM, but in practice the skin effect makes
this a moot point. The toriod will be function perfectly even
if all sections are not perfectly electrically bonded.
Conclusion is generally accurate presuming sufficient overlap.  However, it is not skin effect causing this.  Rather it is capacitance between the overlapping sections.  As long as capacitance between sections is high compared to total top-load capacitance, voltage drop between sections will be small.  If capacitance isn't high enough, arcing between sections will still limit voltage drop, though with less stability and predictability.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2022, 06:42:01 AM »
I had an aluminum tape toroid before. I had a feeling it was underperforming. forgot to measure electrical conductivity as well. it doesnt. breakout point had no electrical connection to topload. same goes to this build. not unless I poke the taped area with wire connection from breakout.

I just tested it last night, but could not reach ×10 length. only x8 or so. tuning is not so far from my previous single topload.

maybe (?) alu taped covered toroid is too lossy
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2022, 07:33:07 PM »
Quote
breakout point had no electrical connection to topload. same goes to this build. not unless I poke the taped area with wire connection from breakout.
If you have a meter that can measure capacitance, check capacitance from breakout to topload.  Depending on how breakout point is mounted, it may not have enough surface area against aluminum to have sufficient capacitance.

Quote
maybe (?) alu taped covered toroid is too lossy
If aluminum is all electrically connected there would be no loss issue.  With sufficient overlay, I'd think it would be fine too.  For better contact, try folding over a tiny bit (1-2mm) of tape at the ends and perhaps along edges too.  Those folded over edges will contact directly to aluminum underneath, avoiding non-conductive adhesive.  Not guaranteed given aluminum's natural oxide layer.  Enough contact points mean statistically some will conduct.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2022, 06:36:01 PM »
Quote
If you have a meter that can measure capacitance, check capacitance from breakout to topload.  Depending on how breakout point is mounted, it may not have enough surface area against aluminum to have sufficient capacitance.

sorry for late response. here it is . my second SEC 4"x 6" . testing .its about 12.6~20pF . red lead is where the breakout point connects. its directly connects to sec winding hv end

another angle, where the secondary wire ends. metal tab and bolt/nut going to other side


NOT currently using it. tested/quicky tuned a few time only, bad performance.. still using my smaller one


btw, here is what Im busy at. this circuit mod will be at the user side. my current controller outputs +5 INTERRUPT & RAMP PWM over RCA sheilded wires. one for UD, and other for buck, w/c also holds the RC ramp filter at input. with audio mod, RAMP PWM path will be replaced with analog line(going buck) 0-5V analog ramp . I would prefer something robust of a low impedance output unity buffer. input doesnt need to be high impedance(but is a plus).
->> will good ol 741 do its job?
->> TL071?
->> or maybe something discrete? Emitter follower?

single supply would be simpler (+7v)

 output goes over 2 meters of RCA sheilded cable. should I worry of plasma spewing around? I felt safer with PWM signal/s on shielded cables

I saw this video on yt(audio capable qcw controller). and this gave me an idea. so I tested it in sim.. it works,  :P testing with 1KHz ""tone"". hope it sound good in real world




cheers
-Ralph
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2022, 04:25:31 AM »
Quote
testing .its about 12.6~20pF
I'd guess that is low enough to cause arcing and resulting instability.  With breakout point wired directly to secondary top, all top-load current (not including breakout current) passes through that capacitance.  It is on the same order as top-load capacitance, making a ~2:1 capacitive voltage divider.  Half output voltage will certainly arc across a tiny gap between foil pieces.

Quote
->> will good ol 741 do its job?
->> TL071?
->> or maybe something discrete? Emitter follower?
Probably any of above will work.  Recommend a resistor between buffer and cable, in the 10 to 100 ohm range.  Buffer circuits tend to be unstable with capacitive loads such as cables, both opamps and emitter followers.  Also helps with any stray RF picked up by the cable, limiting RF current feed back to buffer output.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2022, 11:23:08 AM »
David

 all noted! thank you.

meanwhile im almost finish with the qcw ramp gen. still lack the output buffer part.

 
 [/url]


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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #129 on: November 04, 2022, 04:58:12 AM »
hello again

 what do you guys use for sequencing tones?
tempo control? interrupt(pulse) output as well?

better if standalone. just need two outputs. the note and int signals

sorry but no idea how this is done

thanks
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2022, 12:02:52 PM »
and it actually works!  wow  ;D

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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2022, 03:07:48 AM »
Quote
and it actually works!  wow  ;D
Great!  How do the arcs look with audio modulation?  Does the modulation increase branching?
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2022, 03:50:58 AM »
Quote
and it actually works!  wow  ;D
Great!  How do the arcs look with audio modulation?  Does the modulation increase branching?

Thanks. havent done much investigation yet on the arc side. just tested in 135vbus with 1~2 inch sparks. on tesla coil side, not all frequency(audio) have same sound amplitude(audibly) EVEN with signal generator having a constant output amplitude 5Vpk2pk. 1.4KHz~3.9KHz on my test.

currently looking  up a better square to triangle(or sine) converter circuit. 5v input square wave. I dont want to go the arduino+AD9833 route(too much coding for tones/melody maybe). not much of a coder anyway.

btw ive done couple ckt. for sine output melody. lowpass(RC) then amp -> output amplitude not constant, varies with freq. I just need something between 900Hz-5KHz. if only there was a converter with almost constant output amplitude 1KHz~5KHz(then Id be done).

 also with opamp integrator, but output just dies out. needs constant sq wave input.

anyways, that proves the concept. audio on QCW  ;)

update: ok. using the AD9833 dds, was not hard to code  :) here it is shown a '1KHz note'. output from dds is 0.6vpk. just need to add an amplifier at the end. at least with this one, im guaranted with constant amplitude output.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 06:30:06 PM by Rafft »
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2022, 02:38:41 PM »
 welp

 here is a short run/test of my -musical- qcw of sorts. originally I had a melody that played notes of less than 1KHz. they dont sound well. so I just coded another test melody spanning between 1 and 5KHz just to check how it sounds. 150v bus only. all it lacks is a proper qcw melody(w/c I dont have  ;D)

/>
edit:
I noticed too much branching in the arcs. kinda looks like a regular drsstc ,Im guessing Im over-modulating this. will have to adjust the audio gain lower, and probably achieve more straighter arcs. back to hw mod

edit2:
now it plays. this resonator setup is not fit for 'musical' use. has high coupling resulting in racing arcs. only for low voltage use

/>

edit3:
and just a proof that my junky coil has reached more than x10 its secondary (4.88") length. even the arc tip is out of frame  ;). its tuned in the upper pole and Ive just tested a CBB81 for MMC. not sure if its even ideal for such purpose, but it works.

https://youtube.com/shorts/aY-SdQSxIV8?feature=share

Ive used a pixel counting app for android (imagemeter)



« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 05:17:17 PM by Rafft »
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2023, 03:32:09 PM »
David

On a half(or full-bridge), is what Im seeing correct? Lower IGBTs can use lower gate resistors to 'speed it up' , while upper IGBTs cant/wont like it if they have same gate resistors as lower counterparts. Upper IGBTs are better if maybe 2  or 3 times the resistance of lower gate resistors.

In short, upper IGBTs are more 'sensitive' to drive or does not need as much driving(to turn on) as compared to lower switches. Is there some truth in this? Or some explanation perhaps. Still using counterfeit iGbTs so they have high gate capacitance.
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #135 on: January 06, 2023, 02:28:08 AM »
Quote
On a half(or full-bridge), is what Im seeing correct? Lower IGBTs can use lower gate resistors to 'speed it up' , while upper IGBTs cant/wont like it if they have same gate resistors as lower counterparts. Upper IGBTs are better if maybe 2  or 3 times the resistance of lower gate resistors.
No, AFAIK it is best to have all gate resistors identical.  Diodes across some or all of gate resistance speeds up falling edges of Vge compared to rising edges, increasing dead time.  Again, diodes generally should shunt same fraction of each gate resistor.  (Often diode is across the entire single gate resistor of each IGBT.  Some designs add another resistor per gate, in series with diode or in series with diode // resistor.  That's what I mean by diode being across a fraction of total gate resistance.)

I could imagine some situation where GDT winding-to-winding capacitance causes significant difference between high-side and low-side Vge waveforms.  Perhaps such a difference could be mitigated with changes in gate resistance.  Haven't seen any such cases, however.  I prefer to add common-mode chokes to high-side leads of GDT (a few turns of high-side GDT output twisted pair around a ferrite bead, one bead per high-side IGBT).  Minimizing GDT turns also helps by minimizing capacitance between windings.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #136 on: January 06, 2023, 02:40:06 AM »
Mine does have low R in series with diode, to minimize undershoot. Also have bead as per your suggestion months ago.

But does. 3-5T vs 1T(wire passing bead, no loop) have big impact?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 02:41:54 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2023, 02:47:13 AM »
Quote
But does. 3-5T vs 1T(wire passing bead, no loop) have big impact?
Depends on the frequencies that need attenuating.  Inductance goes as turns^2, so 3T has 9x inductance compared to 1T.  For lower frequencies, that is 9x impedance.  5T is 25x impedance.  However, more turns isn't "free".  Turns add capacitance between turns, which couples high frequencies between turns, reducing the advantage.  Also, more turns increases GDT lead length, which increases leakage inductance, which increases Vge ring.  I typically use 3-4T.  If I'm being a perfectionist, I'll wind 3-4T around one core, then pass through (1T) another core.  That's what is on my DRSSTC.  Likely not necessary.
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2023, 03:14:08 AM »
Currently have this on mine.

Left is lower sw. Right is high side. Im guesstimating maybe 2-3T would do enough for 450KHz? Bead is big
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2023, 04:21:43 AM »
Quote
Left is lower sw. Right is high side. Im guesstimating maybe 2-3T would do enough for 450KHz? Bead is big
Even your existing 1 turn is probably fine.  Most coils don't use any common-mode ferrites.  Do you have a particular issue to solve?  If you have enough spare GDT lead length, 2 turns wouldn't hurt.

BTW, for multiple turns, NiZn ferrites are ideal.  I use 4S2 material cores.  NiZn ferrites are typically used for high-frequency EMI filtering.  Material is insulating (non-conducting) at room temperature.  More common MnZn ferrites are conductive.  That core conductivity increases capacitance between turns, so makes high turn counts less helpful.  Presuming your core is MnZn, 2T might be the ideal compromise.
David Knierim

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2023, 04:21:43 AM »

 


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March 21, 2024, 06:31:42 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
rikkitikkitavi
March 21, 2024, 03:08:01 PM
post Re: [WTS] IGBT, Ferrite, Capacitors, Tools, PSU, Industrial components and parts
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
Mads Barnkob
March 21, 2024, 01:37:32 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Alberto
March 21, 2024, 11:42:07 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 21, 2024, 04:09:14 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 21, 2024, 02:15:31 AM
post My Homemade Structural Analysis X-Ray Machine
[X-ray]
Luca c.
March 21, 2024, 01:35:40 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 20, 2024, 10:40:00 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 08:03:41 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 07:51:57 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 10:39:47 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 20, 2024, 04:09:59 AM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 20, 2024, 01:13:23 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 20, 2024, 12:45:16 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 20, 2024, 12:30:30 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 11:12:24 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:47:49 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:44:19 PM
post Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 19, 2024, 06:52:09 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 19, 2024, 05:02:44 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 05:01:41 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 04:31:02 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 03:59:54 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 06:41:39 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
davekni
March 19, 2024, 04:05:49 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
OmGigaTron
March 18, 2024, 09:08:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 09:07:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 08:57:06 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 18, 2024, 03:51:33 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:59:46 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:33:25 PM
post Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 11:02:12 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 02:36:11 AM
post Re: Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 17, 2024, 07:42:55 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:15:14 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 05:05:04 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
March 17, 2024, 04:50:51 AM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 17, 2024, 04:45:17 AM
post 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:17:51 AM
post Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
March 17, 2024, 01:29:32 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 17, 2024, 12:33:06 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 16, 2024, 08:46:20 PM
post Re: Bleeder resistor for MMC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:39:24 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:21:44 PM
post Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
yourboi
March 16, 2024, 08:20:13 PM

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