Author Topic: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver  (Read 8848 times)

Offline Phoenix

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Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« on: January 29, 2018, 01:46:16 PM »
Hello everybody,

sadly, i blew my IGBT Bricks up yesterday during a static load Test. The primary current did not go over 550A, but my Bricks should be capable of doing that. I think that it has to do with my Driver. I never managed to get my Fullbridge to  switch when the Current in the primary is exactly zero. I am going to need a Driver that is capable of doing Phase Lead. Then i can adjust via a variable inductor when the Inverter switches.

I already tried to add phase lead by connecting a variable inductor in series with a resistor to the input terminals of the Feedback. But the Inverter did not start to oscillate because the inductor lowered the feedback voltage by a lot.

Now i have the following idea: What if i use the Feedback circuitry of the UD2.7 Driver with my 1.3b Driver? Here you can see the Feedback circuitry of the UD 2.7: 

Here you can see the schematic of the 1.3b Driver: https://www.stevehv.4hv.org/newdriver08/DRSSTC_pndriver1_3b.pdf

I thought about connecting the PIN 1 of the 74HC14 to the feedback circuit of the UD 2.7 instead of the PIN 3 of the TL3116. This would replace the feedback circuit of the 1.3b Driver.

Has anyone ever tried something like that?


Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2018, 10:46:30 PM »
I have not tried it, but I see no reason for why this should not work, there is no other interactions between the phase lead part and the rest of the driver than those connections to the 2 AND gates and the flip-flop, so go for it!
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Offline Phoenix

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 08:59:42 AM »
Hello Mads,
Sorry for my late reply but it works  :D
I also took the part of the circuit with the MAX913 into the design and connected it to the 74HC08 AND-Gates. I got rid of nearly all the switching spikes.

There is only one thing i do not understand but this is not a problem: I always had issues with slow rising/falltimes at the gates of the bricks (over 1uS at 75kHz). But if i scope the  inverter output i get ultrafast times. 120ns rise and 80ns fall! Why is that the case? Is the primary current "helping" the bricks to switch faster? Otherwise, my gate signal looks good. I do not think that this is a problem because the rise and falltimes at the output are very good.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 09:06:51 AM by Phoenix »

Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 10:47:25 AM »
Hello Mads,
Sorry for my late reply but it works  :D
I also took the part of the circuit with the MAX913 into the design and connected it to the 74HC08 AND-Gates. I got rid of nearly all the switching spikes.

There is only one thing i do not understand but this is not a problem: I always had issues with slow rising/falltimes at the gates of the bricks (over 1uS at 75kHz). But if i scope the  inverter output i get ultrafast times. 120ns rise and 80ns fall! Why is that the case? Is the primary current "helping" the bricks to switch faster? Otherwise, my gate signal looks good. I do not think that this is a problem because the rise and falltimes at the output are very good.

Yes, the soft switching / resonant switching helps drive the IGBT bricks much faster, I have some oscilliscope shots in my IGBT guide from Kizmo where it can be seen that CM600 bricks switch much faster than expected when calculated from the hard switching data in the datasheet. Scrol down to "Soft switching and zero current switching [2]" http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/tesla-coils/drsstc-design-guide/igbts/
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Offline profdc9

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 02:52:59 PM »
I was wondering how the TL3116 compares to using a 74HC14 as a comparator with hysteresis.  The TL3116 allows the capacitor in the hysteresis feedback path to be adjusted.  How important is this?  I was looking at the feedback circuit and it seems that the TL3116 can be replaced by a 74HC14 if one does not need to adjust this capacitor.   Take a look at the schematic to see how I changed it.  The whole schematic is attached as a PDF.

Dan

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 09:58:00 PM »
I am not sure if this will work. The capacitor in the hysteresis feedback is very useful because you can change the value and set the deadtime for the comparator network. You can decrease noise in the circuit if you choose the correct value depending on your IGBT's and switching frequency.

Benefits of using the TL3116 would be that it is way more faster and has a higher input resistance than the 7414.

Of course you can try it out and see if it works. If you have difficulties finding the TL3116 or if you need a throughhole component you can use the MAX913.
But I have one question about your schematic: I see you are using 2,2 and 1uF capacitors at the output instead of the original 10uF. Are you getting a better gate signal?
If you are interersted i have one more idea for improving the 1.3b like I did: add another GDT Output. Then you can parallel them and get more power like i did.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:05:00 PM by Phoenix »

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 10:15:35 PM »

[/quote]

Yes, the soft switching / resonant switching helps drive the IGBT bricks much faster, I have some oscilliscope shots in my IGBT guide from Kizmo where it can be seen that CM600 bricks switch much faster than expected when calculated from the hard switching data in the datasheet. Scrol down to "Soft switching and zero current switching [2]" http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/tesla-coils/drsstc-design-guide/igbts/
[/quote]

Thank you very much for the clarification. I worried way to much about my rise times at the gates. The SKM200 are very fast and only have 13nF gate capacitance. That is not much for a Brick. I think they would also be suitable for a QCWDRSSTC.

Offline profdc9

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 12:49:50 AM »
I reproduced mostly what was on the UD2.7C schematic, which is why the 2.2 uF and 1 uF are there.   I wanted to make a version of the UD2.7C that did not require the hardest to find part, the TL3116/LT1016/MAX913, so I put back in the 74HC14 from the UD1.3 design, but tried to keep the phase lead.  Interestingly this design uses a pretty slow comparator with about 50 ns response time, the MCP6561T:

http://bsvi.ru/projects/SimpleDriver2/SimpleDriver_2.3.pdf

Of course the inductor tends to accentuate the noise, which is probably why the deadtime was added to the feedback network.   Looking at the TL3116 vs the 74HC14, the 74HC14 has about a 20 ns total propagation delay + transition time, as opposed to about 10 ns for the TL3116.  I don't really need a substitute for the MAX913 though, I just wanted to provide an alternative to those who do.  As far as I can tell, a through-hole version of the TL3116 is no longer available, and it is not hard to imagine LT1016/MAX913 through-hole may also become scarce.

I didn't have enough room on the board for a second GDT, however, more beefy TO220 MOSFETs could be used that have higher peak current capability.

Thanks for your "feedback" :)

Dan





Offline Netzpfuscher

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 09:30:47 AM »
@Phoenix
How did you measure the 1µS rise time? The rise time with massive losses is only from ~4V to about 15V. Under 4V the IGBT is not conducting and over 15V it can handle the peak current (datasheet) without desaturation (SKM200).
The rise time depends also of a good PCB layout, every little bit of inductance limits the peak current. Low inductance traces and ceramic capacitors should improve the waveform.

Offline Hydron

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 11:39:52 AM »
The GDT design generally used in DRSSTCs for it's simplicity and reliability isn't the best way to get fast rise/fall times on the IGBT gates. We generally get away with it though because soft-switching makes everything much less critical.
If you want to get the fastest possible switching then you want to make sure you don't have too many turns on the GDT, have the highest possible (safe) primary/secondary coupling and short low-impedance wiring from the GDT to the IGBT. This will reduce GDT leakage inductance and other stray inductance between the driver and the IGBT gate.
In my case I'm using co-ax to wind my GDT and then 4 parallel pairs of a ribbon cable to connect the driver PCB (where my GDTs are located) to the IGBT PCB, and where possible have laid out wide gate drive traces next to or above/below each other to minimise loop area and inductance. This gave 0-18V rise/fall times under 50ns, though driving fairly small gate charges. The critical portion of the rise/fall time will be smaller still.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 12:18:43 PM »
Thanks for all your answers

I already placed my GDT as close as possible to the Bricks. I am using a N30 core and 14 turns of network cable. I twisted all the wires to get a low stray inductance. I am using 2 Bricks in parallel, so there are a total of 4 Bricks in the inverter. I even tried using 2 GDT's and 2 driver outputs but it never worked because it started to glitch as soon as i applied power to the bridge.

I am using 2 Wima MKS4 caps with 10uF for the coupling capacitors at the driver output. I tried it without them but it changed nothing. I measure my rise/falltimes with my scope  which uses 10%-90%  of the Signal to calculate the rise/falltimes. Today i am going to measure the rise/fall times from 4 to 15V as Netzpfuscher stated. I think a little higher rise/fall times are not that bad because it lowers the risk of a shootthrough.

( I just wanted to add that missed ZCS was not the reason for my Brick failure. I was stupid enough and wound my CT for my scope on a yellow iron powder core... My scope showed only 600A but in reality there have been 1200A in the primary circuit. Its a miracle that the SKM200 which are made for 300A hard switching survived for that long.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 12:24:23 PM by Phoenix »

Offline Netzpfuscher

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2018, 01:22:58 PM »
On your pictures i don't see any heatsink, only a thick aluminium plate. At my coil the heatsink gets warm even with forced cooling. You must ensure that the baseplate of the IGBT is as cool as possible, otherwise the die temperature gets even hotter and you cannot push the IGBT to its limits.

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2018, 03:32:52 PM »
@Netzpfuscher
I know that this solution is not ideal, but the aluminum plate never got over 10°C ambient temperature. It was just easy to get for me. I do not run my coil for long periods of time. If i once find a heatsink that large i will of course use it.

@Hydron
I really like your idea with the coax for the GDT. Can you post a image of it, please? I would be very interested. I have no idea what causes my rise/falltimes to be that slow. I am using a N30 core which should be suitable. I do not think there is something wrong with my driver. Maybe it is the network cables fault. What core are you using? The SKM200 only has 13nF of gate capacitance, so they should be easy to drive. Here you can see an image of my slow gate signal:

Offline profdc9

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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 03:53:19 PM »
One question I have about the ferrite for the GDT is whether or not eddy current losses in the core play a big role.

On the one hand, one wants a large AL so that at a low gate drive frequency, the winding impedance is high enough.  On the other hand, cores with large AL tend to be MnZn ferrites with low bulk resistivity and higher eddy current losses. 

I have wound baluns and Ruthroff transformers for amateur radio and usually for NiZn cores are used because (e.g. 43 ferrite mix) because these have relatively high frequencies (1 to 30 MHz) and eddy current losses become intolerable.  For these transformers, the capacitance between the turns can significantly reduce the output amplitude at higher frequencies.  There are, however, NiZn ferrites made for pulse transformers that have high AL but still retain low bulk resistance.

I was just going to use a MnZn ferrite as the frequency is below 1 MHz with about AL=4000, but perhaps this is a bad idea?  Something like FT240-77 might be a good compromise:

https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/150/5977003801-346510.pdf

They are more expensive though ($8 a piece!).

Dan



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Re: Adding Phase Lead to the 1.3b Driver
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2018, 03:53:19 PM »

 


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March 18, 2024, 09:08:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
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2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 09:07:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
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Twospoons
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MRMILSTAR
March 18, 2024, 03:51:33 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:59:46 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:33:25 PM
post Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 11:02:12 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 02:36:11 AM
post Re: Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
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Mads Barnkob
March 17, 2024, 07:42:55 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
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Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:15:14 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 05:05:04 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
March 17, 2024, 04:50:51 AM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 17, 2024, 04:45:17 AM
post 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:17:51 AM
post Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
March 17, 2024, 01:29:32 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 17, 2024, 12:33:06 AM

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