Author Topic: (distributed) air gap  (Read 695 times)

Offline romy

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
(distributed) air gap
« on: March 17, 2023, 07:47:14 PM »
i understand b-h curves (to a certain extend), the hanna curve and appreciate how toroids are chosen as a function of LI^2. after reading and watching vids quite a bit i still cant really, really grasp the "paradox", that first we invent materials of high permeability and then have to dillute/mitigate permeability with air gaps.

can somebody please point me to a good read on this or even put it in a way, so that it all finally falls into place?

Offline klugesmith

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: (distributed) air gap
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2023, 10:40:47 PM »
Reduced permeability, such as with discrete or distributed air gaps, is never good in a true transformer.
Transformers don't store energy; power goes into primary winding at the same time power goes out from secondary winding.

Air gaps are useful when we need to store energy in a magnetic field, as in a flyback converter or other SMPS converter.
The ferromagnetic core is useful for guiding the magnetic flux, so wire turns in one or more coils can be well coupled. (The turns mostly encircle the same magnetic flux.)
But the core saturates at some flux density, around 2T for iron or a fraction of 1T for ferrite.

For a given winding, and given core dimensions, an air gap reduces the inductance but increases the saturation current, in same proportion.
That increases the energy storage, which is proportional to L and to square of current.

In a traditional flyback core with air gap in middle of HV coil, the magnetic "reluctance" of airgap is much more than total reluctance of the flux path in ferrite.
Magnetic energy density at a place, in joules per cubic meter,  is (B * H / 2).
Flux density is about the same within core and inside the air gap, but H is vastly higher in the air gap.   The air gap volume holds more magnetic energy than the whole solid core (and the space outside the core, which has some leakage flux).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 10:46:38 PM by klugesmith »

Offline romy

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: (distributed) air gap
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2023, 08:20:34 PM »
thank you. yes, im rather concerned with storage chokes (for now). i see how 1/2 x L x I^2 works out and obviously the gap helps storing magnetic energy but the original fuzziness remains: why not use lower permeability material in the first place. what is the difference?

im seeing flatter b-h (hysteresis-) curves with distributed air gaps which means lower permeability, right? maybe i should take a step away from these diagrams and look at it from another point of view?

today i want to find out how to get from 1/2 x L x I^2 to B x H. both stand for potential energy, yes?

(i wrote this several days ago, somehow it didnt get posted.)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2023, 08:22:53 PM by romy »

Offline davekni

  • Executive Board Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2680
  • Karma: +127/-1
  • Physicist, engineer (electronic), and hobbiest
    • View Profile
Re: (distributed) air gap
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2023, 01:48:38 AM »
Quote
why not use lower permeability material in the first place.
Because there are few such materials, and none AFAIK with sufficient saturation flux density and low hysteresis.  That is why lower permeability materials are artificially constructed by adding air (or epoxy...) gaps.
David Knierim

High Voltage Forum

Re: (distributed) air gap
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2023, 01:48:38 AM »

 


* Recent Topics and Posts

post LabCoatz Staccato QCW No straight sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
Today at 02:31:59 PM
post UD2.7 Thru Hole Capacitor Selection
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
Today at 02:30:10 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
February 20, 2024, 03:14:58 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
alan sailer
February 19, 2024, 06:08:05 PM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
February 19, 2024, 03:03:37 PM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 19, 2024, 04:34:22 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 19, 2024, 04:27:28 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 19, 2024, 03:59:51 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 19, 2024, 03:45:51 AM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 19, 2024, 03:30:09 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 19, 2024, 02:38:49 AM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
February 19, 2024, 01:52:20 AM
post Re: Lathe Restauration
[General Chat]
TMaxElectronics
February 19, 2024, 12:47:27 AM
post Re: VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 18, 2024, 10:32:36 PM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 18, 2024, 10:06:58 PM
post Re: VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
February 18, 2024, 11:43:44 AM
post Re: VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
February 18, 2024, 03:41:12 AM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
February 18, 2024, 02:43:37 AM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 17, 2024, 10:45:17 PM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
February 17, 2024, 10:29:30 PM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 17, 2024, 10:20:39 PM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 17, 2024, 10:14:20 PM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 17, 2024, 08:56:42 PM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 17, 2024, 08:52:45 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
February 16, 2024, 09:20:44 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 16, 2024, 03:50:58 AM
post Re: Ramped DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
February 16, 2024, 03:27:18 AM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
klugesmith
February 16, 2024, 01:55:48 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 15, 2024, 07:11:20 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
February 15, 2024, 11:31:42 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 15, 2024, 06:01:49 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 15, 2024, 05:13:13 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 15, 2024, 04:26:00 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 14, 2024, 06:25:45 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
Luca c.
February 14, 2024, 03:33:25 PM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 14, 2024, 12:57:01 PM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 14, 2024, 05:32:30 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 14, 2024, 05:22:35 AM
post Re: VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
AstRii
February 14, 2024, 04:34:14 AM
post Re: VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
February 14, 2024, 03:02:16 AM
post Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
February 14, 2024, 01:58:17 AM
post Re: ZCS for SSTC without E class??
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
AstRii
February 13, 2024, 09:30:40 PM
post DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
February 13, 2024, 03:54:23 PM
post VS-GP250SA60S IGBT suitability - no flywheel diode
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
February 13, 2024, 09:57:12 AM
post Re: TNY265 flyback issue
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
davekni
February 13, 2024, 03:50:05 AM
post Re: TNY265 flyback issue
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
AstRii
February 12, 2024, 07:30:42 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
February 11, 2024, 10:30:38 PM
post Re: Help finding correct IGBT Module
[General Chat]
rikkitikkitavi
February 11, 2024, 09:41:57 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Lucasww
February 11, 2024, 06:34:35 AM
post Re: TNY265 flyback issue
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
davekni
February 10, 2024, 03:55:35 AM
post Help finding correct IGBT Module
[General Chat]
cnichols
February 09, 2024, 09:34:13 PM
post TNY265 flyback issue
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
AstRii
February 09, 2024, 06:45:46 PM
post Re: Help Sourcing or Debugging My Small HV Module
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
michaelrcolton
February 08, 2024, 07:04:07 PM
post ESAB Bantam TBH 140 Welder Restoration
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Mads Barnkob
February 08, 2024, 06:47:35 PM
post Re: Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
FPS
February 08, 2024, 12:27:47 AM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
February 07, 2024, 09:49:11 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
NyaaX_X
February 07, 2024, 04:48:02 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 07, 2024, 08:17:37 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
February 06, 2024, 10:51:35 PM
post Re: OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Mads Barnkob
February 06, 2024, 07:29:29 PM
post Re: Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
MRMILSTAR
February 05, 2024, 05:18:33 AM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
February 04, 2024, 09:16:25 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
February 04, 2024, 09:13:36 PM
post Anyone used iCCFL.com?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 09:00:30 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 08:56:14 PM
post Re: OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Da_Stier
February 04, 2024, 08:18:01 PM
post Re: Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
February 04, 2024, 08:04:36 PM
post OCXO Reference devolopment - or a story about scaleability
[Radio Frequency]
Da_Stier
February 04, 2024, 07:56:55 PM
post Re: PLL "IHFSSTC" concept and schematic
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Lucasww
February 04, 2024, 08:45:53 AM
post Anyone know of a good variable driver?
[Beginners]
FPS
February 04, 2024, 12:56:52 AM
post Re: looking for a pll sstc schematic with gate driver ic.
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
yourboi
February 03, 2024, 07:01:12 PM
post Re: SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
February 03, 2024, 08:04:29 AM
post Re: SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
February 03, 2024, 06:01:12 AM
post Re: is there a standard pinout of optical audio output connectors?
[Electronic Circuits]
Rafft
February 02, 2024, 05:04:44 PM
post SSTC bus inductance
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
February 02, 2024, 08:34:56 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
klugesmith
February 01, 2024, 07:03:41 PM
post Does anyone have a 3d print form for a spiral primary on 4" pvc?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
yourboi
February 01, 2024, 06:23:45 PM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Mads Barnkob
February 01, 2024, 07:53:53 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
klugesmith
January 31, 2024, 11:43:32 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
Ranni81
January 31, 2024, 08:03:40 PM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Hysteresis
January 31, 2024, 03:34:48 PM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
MRMILSTAR
January 31, 2024, 05:08:10 AM
post Re: How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Mads Barnkob
January 30, 2024, 10:17:45 PM
post How much power?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
January 30, 2024, 08:07:39 PM
post Ultrasonic Plastic Welding experiments with TA-40CS transducer
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
davekni
January 28, 2024, 11:37:30 PM
post Re: is there a standard pinout of optical audio output connectors?
[Electronic Circuits]
yourboi
January 28, 2024, 03:07:12 AM
post Re: First time DRSSTC Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
January 27, 2024, 02:27:29 PM
post Re: Lathe Restauration
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
January 27, 2024, 01:26:34 PM
post Re: Determine output voltage of DRSSTC
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
January 27, 2024, 01:15:51 PM
post Re: is there a standard pinout of optical audio output connectors?
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
January 27, 2024, 01:13:29 PM
post Determine output voltage of DRSSTC
[General Chat]
Pavol
January 27, 2024, 11:35:35 AM
post is there a standard pinout of optical audio output connectors?
[Electronic Circuits]
yourboi
January 27, 2024, 01:47:13 AM
post Re: First time DRSSTC Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
AstRii
January 26, 2024, 11:26:11 PM
post Re: First time DRSSTC Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
January 26, 2024, 08:24:30 PM
post Re: Next Gen DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Netzpfuscher
January 26, 2024, 05:19:18 PM
post Re: Anyone had success using analogue/digital HV panel meters?
[Beginners]
MRMILSTAR
January 26, 2024, 04:28:38 PM
post Re: Anyone had success using analogue/digital HV panel meters?
[Beginners]
Luca c.
January 26, 2024, 03:34:10 PM
post Re: Anyone had success using analogue/digital HV panel meters?
[Beginners]
FPS
January 26, 2024, 11:49:48 AM
post Re: Anyone had success using analogue/digital HV panel meters?
[Beginners]
TizianoBll
January 26, 2024, 11:04:37 AM
post Re: Next Gen DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
January 26, 2024, 06:26:58 AM

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal