Author Topic: Last cap in CW always blowing up  (Read 1657 times)

Offline JoeBusic

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Last cap in CW always blowing up
« on: September 19, 2024, 01:50:01 PM »
I have an issue with a CW setup. I'm not sparking. I need it for science. So the clasics...PSU-ZVS-HV transformer-CW 5 stage. As I need very low current there is a 12GOhm resistor. Subject in the matter is a coil thingy that influences "something" and it's measured.
Now I'm building my 4th CW with higher rating caps (50kV), as I tried 30kV and 40kV. Transformer output is 15kV peak. I got a suggestion to put a 1MOhm resistor before CW. Parts are on their way.
But to be sure what's going on, if anyone knows, as it's the last cap that blows, should I put a resistor (say 10kOhm) before that cap? Or maybe before all of them. FALSTAD says the difference is small, it just takes longer to achieve full voltage.

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2024, 05:13:24 PM »
So I got a couple of suggestions. One is to put a 10k resistor before the last cap and another is to put 1k resistors before all of them and a 10k before the last one. I'll try both methods when parts arrive.
Chip in for other suggestions.

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2024, 12:43:12 AM »
It would help if you can show a schematic for _your_ "5 stage CW" and the adjacent bits of input and load.
Even if it's just a snip or link to something published, e.g. by Voltage Multipliers Inc.

You say transformer output is 15 kV peak. Can you tell us about measuring that? And how are you measuring CW output voltage?

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2024, 10:23:18 AM »
I had a electronics student come over with a DIY apparatus for measuring HV output. I believe it's a rectifier and load resistors in it. Didn't ask. We set up the PSU output to get it to a smudge under 15kV.


Offline davekni

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2024, 07:05:15 PM »
Pictures of your physical setup might be helpful too.  Unusual to have problems with a capacitor at HV end of a CW multiplier.  Caps at the start experience higher voltage and current.  I'd guess your issue might be voltage breakdown through case of your failing final capacitor, from case to air or oil or whatever insulating medium you are using.
David Knierim

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2024, 08:55:02 PM »

As seen, I have potted the cascade in silicone (for electronics, very high electric resistance and good heat flow). Resistor is potted in electronics epoxy.
I have removed the silicone and will remove the last stage. Will connect all again and record what happens. First few blow outs in oil were very visible. It was a flash at the last cap. Silicone is expensive so I'll use liquid parafine again. I have checked all caps but with a multimeter and all have good capacity. Before flukes were easily spotted. So, I'm not sure what happened this time. But, as the second time I also removed a stage and got the same results, it should be visible again.

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2024, 08:57:01 PM »

Something is not working with attachments. Here, the second picture. And I can't modify the post...

Offline davekni

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2024, 09:30:04 PM »
Quote
Something is not working with attachments. Here, the second picture. And I can't modify the post...
Yes, attachments took me a couple tries to learn.  My first project post had ten replications of first image.  Necessary to click the "(more attachments)" line below the first attachment to add more.
Modifying is also slightly tricky.  The "modify" button below post does nothing.  No idea why it's there.  The "modify" button above your post is what to click.

I've built only one CW multiplier above 100kV, so am certainly not an expert.  Would be worth your while to look at other large CW multiplier projects on this forum.  The one thing I'd recommend is keeping all wires and anything else conductive far away from CW multiplier.  All input circuitry and wiring should be to left of your potted CW multiplier.  Or better, mount your multiplier vertically with output on top and everything else below bottom of multiplier.
David Knierim

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2024, 09:50:29 PM »
When you say the last cap is "blown" do you mean that its dielectric broke down and now the capacitor is useless?

I see that your multiplier is in a small box lying flat on a table. Its possible that the voltage at the final stage is high enough to break through your insulating medium to the table below especially if your components are against the edge of the box. I would try elevating the multiplier above the table and try it. I ran into this problem with my horizontal Marx generator. I have to operate it on acrylic standoffs to get it high enough off the table otherwise it will arc to the table. If we could see the inner layout of your multiplier components it would be easier to judge.

You mentioned that you used silicon and are now going to try paraffin. Although these are good insulators they can easily form voids while poring. The trapped air pockets can allow flash-over. If feasible, I would do the development with oil to ensure that there are no voids and you can possibly see what is failing. . After you get it working you can then possibly replace the oil with paraffin.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2024, 09:54:32 PM by MRMILSTAR »
Steve White
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Retired electrical engineer

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2024, 10:05:07 PM »
  The one thing I'd recommend is keeping all wires and anything else conductive far away from CW multiplier.  All input circuitry and wiring should be to left of your potted CW multiplier.  Or better, mount your multiplier vertically with output on top and everything else below bottom of multiplier.
[/quote]
Cables are long enough. On the left are the PSU, ZVS and transformer. 50cm away goes the CW and a meter later is my coil thingy. Everything is layed on a piece of 8mm thick G10 got from a motor shield company, to isolate from the table (just in case).

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2024, 10:26:13 PM »
An epoxied CW and a picture of the silicone one before pouring.


Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2024, 11:01:04 PM »
When you say the last cap is "blown" do you mean that its dielectric broke down and now the capacitor is useless?

I see that your multiplier is in a small box lying flat on a table. Its possible that the voltage at the final stage is high enough to break through your insulating medium to the table below especially if your components are against the edge of the box. I would try elevating the multiplier above the table and try it. I ran into this problem with my horizontal Marx generator. I have to operate it on acrylic standoffs to get it high enough off the table otherwise it will arc to the table. If we could see the inner layout of your multiplier components it would be easier to judge.

You mentioned that you used silicon and are now going to try paraffin. Although these are good insulators they can easily form voids while poring. The trapped air pockets can allow flash-over. If feasible, I would do the development with oil to ensure that there are no voids and you can possibly see what is failing. . After you get it working you can then possibly replace the oil with paraffin.
Yes, the cap got useless.
All pours are vacuumed. Silicone was 20mm thick on all sides of the CW. I have one CW in epoxy for testing. That one didn't blow up but blew my PSU and fets. Have changed the fets and got a new PSU. This one will be also tested to see what happens. For now the lack of proper discharge seems like a valid idea what's going wrong. Before my new components arrive, a few tests will be made with remainders of CW's a have. Will be smarter tomorrow.

Offline klugesmith

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2024, 01:42:35 AM »
Can we talk about your 12G resistor?   What's the datasheet voltage rating of the individual elements that you have put in series?   In case you're new to HV resistors, the voltage rating is independent of power rating, and is not affected by oil immersion or solid dielectric potting.  Overvolting can cause significant resistance changes, temporary or permanent, or internal breakdown.

It looks like your application has a 1 mH inductor conducting 12 uA DC while sitting at 140 kV with respect to "ground".
How much voltage appears across the inductor due to 40 kHz ripple on the CW output node? In the presence of parasitic capacitance on both sides of the inductor.

What's the corona glow view when you operate in the dark?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2024, 01:44:28 AM by klugesmith »

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2024, 10:01:43 AM »
Can we talk about your 12G resistor?   What's the datasheet voltage rating of the individual elements that you have put in series?   In case you're new to HV resistors, the voltage rating is independent of power rating, and is not affected by oil immersion or solid dielectric potting.  Overvolting can cause significant resistance changes, temporary or permanent, or internal breakdown.

It looks like your application has a 1 mH inductor conducting 12 uA DC while sitting at 140 kV with respect to "ground".
How much voltage appears across the inductor due to 40 kHz ripple on the CW output node? In the presence of parasitic capacitance on both sides of the inductor.

What's the corona glow view when you operate in the dark?
Resistors are 2GOhm 20kV a piece. I potted them as it sparked between the connections. No more sparking.
As for the 1mH, it's just for the simulation. Didn't measure it as it's probably way lower. Due to very low current I don't expect more than 100kV output from the CW. Couldn't measure it ass it always blows in the first 3s. Even tried with only 2 stages, with same results. Simulation says the Vd is 500uV and power is 6mW. I don't see it doing anything of significance.
No coronas. Solders are flooded and all connections on the coily thing and it self are all well isolated. I had only one small corona on the first resistor (inside of epoxy) as the solder was not flooded enough. Fixed that for next test.

Offline davekni

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2024, 07:23:33 PM »
Quote
Cables are long enough. On the left are the PSU, ZVS and transformer. 50cm away goes the CW and a meter later is my coil thingy. Everything is layed on a piece of 8mm thick G10 got from a motor shield company, to isolate from the table (just in case).
How are the long cables routed?  The black overall enclosure looks like it is hinged and intended to close.  That might get cables or other components near CW multiplier.  For example, transformer secondary wired in picture extend all the way along CW multiplier.

Quote
Even tried with only 2 stages, with same results.
If two stages fail, why not try one, or at least figure out the issue with two rather than five?  Cheaper to repair and easier to measure at lower voltage.
With two stages failing, kludgesmith's earlier question becomes important, measuring 15kV input peak.  ZVS oscillators often generate momentary high output on startup.  May be simple over-voltage issue.  Though that usually fries first stage capacitor rather than final stage.
David Knierim

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2024, 08:12:10 PM »
Quote
Cables are long enough. On the left are the PSU, ZVS and transformer. 50cm away goes the CW and a meter later is my coil thingy. Everything is layed on a piece of 8mm thick G10 got from a motor shield company, to isolate from the table (just in case).
How are the long cables routed?  The black overall enclosure looks like it is hinged and intended to close.  That might get cables or other components near CW multiplier.  For example, transformer secondary wired in picture extend all the way along CW multiplier.

Quote
Even tried with only 2 stages, with same results.
If two stages fail, why not try one, or at least figure out the issue with two rather than five?  Cheaper to repair and easier to measure at lower voltage.
With two stages failing, kludgesmith's earlier question becomes important, measuring 15kV input peak.  ZVS oscillators often generate momentary high output on startup.  May be simple over-voltage issue.  Though that usually fries first stage capacitor rather than final stage.
The case is not there when in use. It's for transport. All is layed on a table.
I understand that first stage is under stress, but it blows after the 3rd second. By that time ZVS startup peak is way over. I have left overs from the last CW. Decided to wait for the resistors and, indeed, start checking from one stage on. I did change my PSU from the last transformer voltage check, so it has merit to check that again. I'll start with the front resistance to slow things down and see what happens. In the meantime I'll try to figure out a circuit addition, if the last cap continues to blow, to release majority of current from the cap, while prime circuit continues to work in the same manner. This is kind of a weird issue. I got enough suggestion for a thorough checkup. Now, it's a 5 day wait for parts.

Offline davekni

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2024, 08:23:18 PM »
Quote
By that time ZVS startup peak is way over.
Yes, I was just about to modify my last post.  A quick energy calculation shows that charging CW caps requires much more energy than would be stored in ZVS input inductors even with an extreme startup current spike.

Quote
This is kind of a weird issue.
Yes, does seem that way.  Even though your two-stage experiment points against HV corona issue, I'd try standing CW multiplier vertically so not against any surface other than air.  Then you could look carefully for corona in a dark room, and it is also possible it would fix this weird issue.
David Knierim

Offline JoeBusic

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2024, 09:11:55 PM »
Quote
This is kind of a weird issue.
Yes, does seem that way.  Even though your two-stage experiment points against HV corona issue, I'd try standing CW multiplier vertically so not against any surface other than air.  Then you could look carefully for corona in a dark room, and it is also possible it would fix this weird issue.
[/quote]
Good one. Now with some time to tinker things, I'll make some standoffs from acrylic for all components to raise them cca 2" from the table. That should be enough for visual inspection. IF that's the issue, it's an easy fix.
Well, smarter every day.
Thanks

Offline davekni

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2024, 12:41:10 AM »
Even though not a normal ZVS startup transient issue, have you measured your +-15kV transformer output?  At 40kHz, transformer secondary interwinding capacitance and CW multiplier diode capacitance make secondary a resonant circuit.  That resonance might be causing output voltage to be much higher than would be calculated by simple transformer turns ratio.  (The more frequent issue is that output resonant frequency is well below primary, resulting in very little output.  But the opposite is possible.)
David Knierim

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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2024, 05:23:51 AM »
Did you measure the transformer peak output as connected to the multiplier stack or was the transformer output disconnected? You can get very different measurements with and without a load on the transformer.
Steve White
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Re: Last cap in CW always blowing up
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2024, 05:23:51 AM »

 


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[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
October 27, 2024, 12:51:21 PM
post IGBT Gate Drive Transformer (GDT) Design, Construction and Test
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
October 27, 2024, 11:38:24 AM
post Re: My first QCW
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 27, 2024, 06:24:25 AM
post My SSTC's IGBT's blow up when toroid is added
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Frantisek
October 26, 2024, 08:49:05 PM
post Re: My first QCW
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mathieu thm
October 26, 2024, 07:49:37 PM
post Re: [WTS] Yard Sale (IGBT's/Wires/Cooling/wire/induction/BusCaps/Coils/Magnetrons)
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
dbach
October 26, 2024, 03:51:05 PM
post Re: [WTS] Yard Sale (IGBT's/Wires/Cooling/wire/induction/BusCaps/Coils/Magnetrons)
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
noahsarc
October 26, 2024, 03:46:13 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 25, 2024, 11:18:22 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Main Capacitors Topology
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 25, 2024, 11:13:29 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Main Capacitors Topology
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
October 25, 2024, 10:52:23 PM
post Re: Triodes in the 5 to 10 kW range?
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
Avenger
October 25, 2024, 09:05:37 PM
post Re: My first QCW
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mathieu thm
October 25, 2024, 07:46:41 PM
post Re: Induction heater safety
[Electronic Circuits]
rikkitikkitavi
October 25, 2024, 11:07:20 AM
post SSTC USB interrupter based on Raspberry Pi Pico
[Computers, Microcontrollers, Programmable Logic, Interfaces and Displays]
AdamRozdrazewski
October 25, 2024, 10:28:43 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
October 25, 2024, 06:26:52 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
October 25, 2024, 05:53:02 AM
post Re: Induction heater safety
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
October 25, 2024, 05:23:14 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
October 25, 2024, 05:17:02 AM
post Re: Induction heater safety
[Electronic Circuits]
petespaco
October 25, 2024, 04:40:47 AM
post Re: Triodes in the 5 to 10 kW range?
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
unrealcrafter2
October 25, 2024, 01:23:27 AM
post Re: [WTS] Yard Sale (IGBT's/Wires/Cooling/wire/induction/BusCaps/Coils/Magnetrons)
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
dbach
October 25, 2024, 01:17:18 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
October 25, 2024, 01:14:28 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
October 25, 2024, 12:32:31 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 24, 2024, 08:21:32 PM
post Re: Steve's schematic can apply the TC4422 chip
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Glad_Yard
October 24, 2024, 08:05:34 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
October 24, 2024, 04:56:50 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
October 24, 2024, 04:48:31 AM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
zgoode
October 24, 2024, 12:44:43 AM
post Re: Flyback speaker - Help adjusting scope waves and gate voltage
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
klugesmith
October 23, 2024, 08:44:01 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
futurist
October 23, 2024, 05:57:48 PM
post How to send waveform generator output to high voltage?
[General Chat]
kenw232
October 23, 2024, 05:02:59 PM
post Re: Question about phase lead when tuning the primary
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 23, 2024, 08:04:42 AM
post Induction heater safety
[Electronic Circuits]
thaumatichthys
October 23, 2024, 07:29:51 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ZakW
October 23, 2024, 05:39:57 AM
post Re: QCWDRSSTC - Project Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
October 23, 2024, 05:16:00 AM
post Re: Flyback speaker - Help adjusting scope waves and gate voltage
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
davekni
October 23, 2024, 05:04:51 AM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
October 23, 2024, 03:17:58 AM

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