Author Topic: RDRSSTC - Project Build  (Read 15968 times)

Offline ZakW

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2024, 08:49:11 AM »
Quote
An off-axis series inductor will lower the effective coupling, so that's something to bear in mind. It may not actually give you more secondary voltage, I'm not sure.
Do you mind elaborating a bit? Is proximity an issue or are you saying because it is simply in series with the primary?

Here is a quick picture of the inductor soldered to the tank cap and primary. It is about 6in away from the coil


Here is a picture of the half bridge since I haven't shared one yet.


-Zak

Offline Michelle_

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2024, 04:44:30 PM »
Mistake #1 - PCB Mounting Hole Clearance
Proposed solution: I plan on either using much more clearance around the mounting hole or mounting the PCB in another way.



Bad choice of fastener for a few reasons IMO. I would recommend a machine screw (that will have finer and less sharp threads) combined with a nonmetallic washer, or even a nonmetallic machine screw depending on the case. For stuff like this it's good to have a few taps and drills around, for example an M3 or M4 bottoming tap would make really nice mounting holes on that block. Another problem with using Philips head screws like that is the grip with the tool, they are prone to slipping, stripping, and you often have to push down hard which can lead to issues possibly like what you have where the fastener is gouging into the surface because you're driving it down. A machine screw with an allen key driving it, and especially with a washer underneath, is a lot more gentle and precise not to mention being able to produce more torque.

Another possibility is to eliminate the fastener by making posts for the PCB mounting holes instead to locate it, and then rely on clips or brackets of some kind, or even just the IGBTs to hold it down.

Not being critical, just offering suggestions to make the design more serviceable.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 04:48:35 PM by Michelle_ »

Offline davekni

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2024, 10:29:02 PM »
Quote
Here is a video of what all of my tinkering has led to, solid 19in arcs @120v input with little branching.
Look great to me!  Though I don't have any directly comparable experience.

Quote
Currently, I am still thinking that due to the short ramp time of ~8ms that mains ramped coils have to operate in, there is only so much that can be done to boost arc length at the cost of increased branching.
Yes, I'd agree.  In particular, ramp time is generally only 4ms or even a bit less.  Only 1/4th cycle of line voltage is increasing.  And even the last bit of that is rather flat.

Quote
Ideal current ramp - Example from the video above
You have managed to stretch the ramp time to ~5ms!  Not sure just what combination of circuit parameters and arc loading effects causes this.  But it likely explains why your tuning is so specific and doesn't fit well to typical wisdom about ramped coils (such as being best with as high coupling as possible).

Quote
Smaller toploads seem to work much better. Even a large washer is sufficient.
Small top load combined with low coupling is unusual for a ramped coil.  Perhaps part of your achieving longer ramp time.
Larger top loads often require a longer and/or sharper breakout in order to start arc early enough during ramp.

Quote
Scope captures & findings: Blue = Bridge output (differential probe) Purple = primary CT with 51 ohm burden resistor
I'm guessing your CT is still 825:1.  Had to search back through thread to find that number.  Would be convenient to mention volts-to-amps conversion on scope traces of current.

Quote
Quote
    An off-axis series inductor will lower the effective coupling, so that's something to bear in mind. It may not actually give you more secondary voltage, I'm not sure.
Do you mind elaborating a bit? Is proximity an issue or are you saying because it is simply in series with the primary?
Using random simple example numbers: a 1uH inductor in series with a 1uH primary is the same as a 2uH primary with sqrt(1/2) as much coupling.  You could achieve same result with a higher inductance lower coupling primary, such as a larger diameter 2-turn coil.
Higher coupling is generally better for ramped coils.  However, your specific case of stretching ramp to ~5ms will likely not hold if parameters are optimized in a conventional way.

Quote
Here is a picture of the half bridge since I haven't shared one yet.
Looks good.

Quote
I reduced the DC split rail caps from 1uF to 0.33uF, this improved output by a couple inches. Smaller DC split rail caps respond more quickly to changes in current, providing a more stable current output to the primary.
Split capacitors are in series with 94nF MMC.  Most significant effect of reducing them is to reduce effective MMC capacitance.  That tuning happens to work better for your coil.
Other perhaps-significant effect is to reduce total Vbus capacitance (1uF plus two split caps in series).  Vbus capacitance is charged to peak of line voltage (170V) at ramp start (unless discharged by a bleed resistor).  Don't see any initial spike at ramp start in your scope captures, however.

Quote
My assumption is that the voltage doesn’t have time to ring up to such high levels compared to a traditional DRSSTC?
You have primary current measurement.  MMC voltage can be calculated based on current and frequency.

Quote
OCD has not tripped with the half bridge.
Presuming 825:1 CT, 5.1V across 51ohms on current trace translates to 82.5A.

Quote
Proposed solution: I plan on either using much more clearance around the mounting hole or mounting the PCB in another way.
For line voltage to ground, your existing screw with an insulating washer should be fine.  Presume mounting structure is grounded.
To minimize any unintended extra line-to-ground voltage at TC frequency, a small cap from line to Vbus- will bypass such higher frequency current.  ~5nF is typical, usually called a "Y cap" in power supply designs.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2024, 10:35:47 PM by davekni »
David Knierim

Offline ZakW

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2024, 01:08:47 AM »
Quote
Look great to me!  Though I don't have any directly comparable experience.
Thanks! I am just happy that the output is at least consistently straight and not branching. It has been very frustrating trying to get straighter arcs. 21in is the record for me to beat, that is what I was able to get with my RSSTC. I think I am going to make another temporary full bridge with copper tape and try that now that I have things working again.

Quote
You have managed to stretch the ramp time to ~5ms!  Not sure just what combination of circuit parameters and arc loading effects causes this.  But it likely explains why your tuning is so specific and doesn't fit well to typical wisdom about ramped coils (such as being best with as high coupling as possible).
So I have the primary almost directly wrapped to the secondary form. There is still a gap since I have epoxy inside and an outer form but it is as close as it can get. Are you saying that the added inductor is effectively lowering the coupling by being included regardless of how close the primary is to the secondary?

Quote
Small top load combined with low coupling is unusual for a ramped coil.  Perhaps part of your achieving longer ramp time. Larger top loads often require a longer and/or sharper breakout in order to start arc early enough during ramp.
When I use a topload even though the frequency drops a bit the output is just terrible. The arcs are very 'squiggly' and branched even though the coil is operating close to what it was before with a smaller topload. Current also goes way up. Could this be related to the fact that my coils are wound with very thin wire (44-41awg) and have different parameters than traditional coils with lower resistance thicker awg wire?

I also think that by not having a large topload the coil is more easily detuned as the arc grows further assisting it getting to resonance in such a short window.

Quote
I'm guessing your CT is still 825:1.  Had to search back through thread to find that number.  Would be convenient to mention volts-to-amps conversion on scope traces of current.
Thanks for checking, you're correct. I just fired up the scope to see what the peak voltage was with this smaller coil I am testing. At peak it is at 10v, so that is ~162A.

Quote
Using random simple example numbers: a 1uH inductor in series with a 1uH primary is the same as a 2uH primary with sqrt(1/2) as much coupling.  You could achieve same result with a higher inductance lower coupling primary, such as a larger diameter 2-turn coil. Higher coupling is generally better for ramped coils.  However, your specific case of stretching ramp to ~5ms will likely not hold if parameters are optimized in a conventional way.
I can try removing the inductor and decreasing the coupling of the primary to see if I can achieve the same output. I do think that having the inductor allows me to more easily tune it since I can tap the coil or add and remove turns, while keeping the primary fixed. Seems to have been easier to manage vs rewinding the primary a thousand times like I have before.

Quote
Split capacitors are in series with 94nF MMC.  Most significant effect of reducing them is to reduce effective MMC capacitance.  That tuning happens to work better for your coil.
Other perhaps-significant effect is to reduce total Vbus capacitance (1uF plus two split caps in series).  Vbus capacitance is charged to peak of line voltage (170V) at ramp start (unless discharged by a bleed resistor).  Don't see any initial spike at ramp start in your scope captures, however.
So this is roughly what the bridge output looks like with the smaller 0.33uF caps. You can see it is more sinusoidal. With the 1uF caps the waveform was much more square, regardless of the MMC tuning. This was something that I noticed in my RSSTC. When I reduced the DC caps from 1uf to 0.3uF I had a large increase in output. However, the SSTC coil was running closer to primary resonance and was leading to the IGBTs failing due to too much current.
Blue = bridge output purple = current CT


Quote
You have primary current measurement.  MMC voltage can be calculated based on current and frequency.
I will look into calculating this.

Thanks for the feedback so far everyone :)

Offline davekni

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2024, 05:02:19 AM »
Quote
There is still a gap since I have epoxy inside and an outer form but it is as close as it can get. Are you saying that the added inductor is effectively lowering the coupling by being included regardless of how close the primary is to the secondary?
Many factors affect coupling.  Close diameter increases coupling.  So does raising height of primary.  So does spreading out the primary turns vertically (even for the same center height).  Whatever your coupling may be before adding external inductor, that coupling will be reduced by adding the inductor.

Quote
I also think that by not having a large topload the coil is more easily detuned as the arc grows further assisting it getting to resonance in such a short window.
That may be a key way you stretch ramp time - by hitting optimum tuning near end when line voltage is starting to drop.

Quote
I do think that having the inductor allows me to more easily tune it since I can tap the coil or add and remove turns, while keeping the primary fixed. Seems to have been easier to manage vs rewinding the primary a thousand times like I have before.
Yes, adjustability is an advantage to added inductor.  Even just stretching its length suffices to adjust it (lower inductance).  You may need the resulting lower coupling in order to get the optimum ramp extension past 4ms.

Quote
So this is roughly what the bridge output looks like with the smaller 0.33uF caps. You can see it is more sinusoidal. With the 1uF caps the waveform was much more square, regardless of the MMC tuning. This was something that I noticed in my RSSTC. When I reduced the DC caps from 1uf to 0.3uF I had a large increase in output.
Yes, that's because bridge output now effectively includes part of MMC.  The half-bridge is still generating close to a square wave.  The other side has ~0.58uF (0.33uF in parallel with series of other 0.33uF in series with 1uF Vbus cap).  The sine wave contribution is from that passive side of bridge.  Sine wave current generating sine wave voltage across 0.58uF.

David Knierim

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Re: RDRSSTC - Project Build
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2024, 05:02:19 AM »

 


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post Uses for Weston's Little Bee probe
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:40:59 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
July 01, 2024, 08:09:42 AM
post Re: Coulometric hourmeters
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
davekni
June 30, 2024, 06:49:45 AM

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