Author Topic: Interesting IGBT failure  (Read 1429 times)

Offline TMaxElectronics

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Karma: +24/-0
    • View Profile
    • My random (and very empty) electronics blog
Interesting IGBT failure
« on: September 29, 2023, 10:56:54 AM »
It seems that my bad luck with IGBTs struck again, but not in the way you might expect :)

I was testing the small coil (https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=2394) when suddenly there was a pop and the breaker tripped. Power was only around 10kw so not fill tilt, but I was running from rectified three phase turned down on my variac to ~280V on the bus. After taking apart the coil I was surprised to see none of the IGBTs blown apart and no shrapnel anywhere in the case. Although three Transistors definitely died and shorted out.

With a bit of searching I finally found what made the pop noise:


So from what I can tell this is what happened:
When installing the IGBTs I accidentally mis-aligned the insulator sheet by perhaps a millimeter to the left. Certainly not enough to cause any immediate problems with shorting out. I then put a little too much thermal compound underneath the IGBT and some squeezed out by the side a little, but once again not enough to immediately cause trouble. The first few coil runs never ran at more than a few kw continuously (that 20kw run I posted lasted maybe 3sec before the breaker tripped?) so the IGBTs never really had time to warm up.

During the last run however I had much more power to play with because of the three phase supply, so I ran the coil at those 10 or so kw for quite a few minutes. The now hot thermal compound must have gotten a bit softer and dripped towards the heatsink.
Finally, the (slightly conductive!) thermal compound bridged between the non isolated heat spreader and the earthed heatsink. The plasma that formed expanded enough to touch the gate of the adjacent IGBT killing it. You can actually see a small shiny spot on the gate pin on the second IGBT from the right. That of course also killed the two IGBTs on the low side of the bridge when those switched on. Interestingly enough the parallel IGBT did not suffer damage (at least its not shorted), probably because the adjacent one dying made it take all of the current.

So remember to not use too much thermal paste everybody ;)

Offline AstRii

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
  • Karma: +9/-0
  • Czech Technical University in Prague
    • View Profile
    • UHVlab - Tesla Coils | High Voltage | Education
Re: Interesting IGBT failure
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2023, 01:43:46 PM »
Though luck :x

I always thought thermal paste were non conductive. Are you using some special one? I am using the same thermal pastes which are used for computer CPUs and never had this problem.
Bc. Marek Novotny
Czech Republic, Czech Technical University in Prague
www.uhvlab.org

Offline flyingperson23

  • High Voltage Technician
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
  • Karma: +5/-3
  • noob :)
    • View Profile
Re: Interesting IGBT failure
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2023, 04:20:52 PM »
Why not make the insulating sheets significantly oversized so this isn't a possibility?

Offline davekni

  • Executive Board Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2916
  • Karma: +138/-2
  • Physicist, engineer (electronic), and hobbiest
    • View Profile
Re: Interesting IGBT failure
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2023, 12:06:24 AM »
Quote
So remember to not use too much thermal paste everybody ;)
Yes.  Had a similar problem twice at work with 60V FETs.  Heat sink is live (to FET drains), so only thermal compound, no separate spreader nor insulator.  Excess thermal paste bridged up to gate pin.

Quote
Interestingly enough the parallel IGBT did not suffer damage (at least its not shorted), probably because the adjacent one dying made it take all of the current.
Interesting, but makes sense.  When my QCW bridge failed due to excess transient heating (running in phase shift mode), all four IGBTs of one half-bridge failed.  In my case, whichever IGBT of a paralleled pair failed first, other die was likely so hot it was on the verge of failing too.

Quote
I always thought thermal paste were non conductive.
The common old white thermal compound was not conductive.  Perhaps powdered alumina filled if I recall correctly.  Newer gray or black thermal compounds have much higher thermal conductivity, but are filled with powdered silver or graphite, so electrically conductive.  Now I find thermal compounds available with thermal performance as good as silver-filled (>8W/mK) but electrically non-conductive.  Perhaps filled with AlN powder?  We just switched to one of those for prototype builds at work to avoid previous failures due to excess compound.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2023, 12:08:03 AM by davekni »
David Knierim

Offline TMaxElectronics

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Karma: +24/-0
    • View Profile
    • My random (and very empty) electronics blog
Re: Interesting IGBT failure
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2023, 11:58:45 AM »
Quote
Why not make the insulating sheets significantly oversized so this isn't a possibility?
Well... laziness xD Didn't want to use two pieces of the insulator sheet I cut the smaller sections out of so I just cut it in half, that ended up being exactly that width.

Quote
I always thought thermal paste were non conductive.
I'm using arctic mx4. I've used various types of CPU/PC type compounds and so far only come across conductive ones actually. Arctic MX2 is definitely confirmed to be conductive, that also already killed a circuit for me.
Interestingly enough the compounds aren't a dead short or even just a high resistance. The failure of one of my LED drivers (the one with MX2 in it) happened after quite a while and there the thermal paste directly contacted multiple exposed traces. Only after running for a while did the HV side short to a logic level track and kill the controller. Perhaps the conductive particles inside don't always make enough contact to conduct?

Oh I just remembered seeing ads for non conductive thermal compound? I think its designed for use in GPUs where you really have to use an excess of paste.

Quote
In my case, whichever IGBT of a paralleled pair failed first, other die was likely so hot it was on the verge of failing too.
I think I will end up replacing that one anyway though, as it would have potentially seen some quite high voltages on the gate. After all the gates both used the same winding on the GDT so during the transient there was effectively just a 20 Ohm resistor in series with the HV on the other gate. Guess the TVS diode caught that but I wouldn't bet anything on the IGBT not having died a little ^^ Better not risk it dying later and taking the new replacement IGBTs with it.

High Voltage Forum

Re: Interesting IGBT failure
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2023, 11:58:45 AM »

 


* Recent Topics and Posts

post Wierd ud 1.3 driver with no ocd regulation?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ItsChloeUwU
Today at 10:46:39 AM
post Re: Crystal Radio germanium diode smackdown
[Radio Frequency]
haversin
Today at 02:46:43 AM
post Re: SCR rating for capacitor dump
[Beginners]
Twospoons
September 07, 2024, 09:00:36 AM
post Re: Crystal Radio germanium diode smackdown
[Radio Frequency]
klugesmith
September 07, 2024, 06:21:32 AM
post Re: SCR rating for capacitor dump
[Beginners]
klugesmith
September 07, 2024, 04:41:21 AM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Twospoons
September 07, 2024, 01:19:36 AM
post SCR rating for capacitor dump
[Beginners]
FPS
September 07, 2024, 12:59:54 AM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
September 06, 2024, 07:26:02 PM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Twospoons
September 06, 2024, 06:34:25 AM
post Crystal Radio germanium diode smackdown
[Radio Frequency]
haversin
September 05, 2024, 01:24:39 AM
post Re: Help with grounding an SSTC & safely storing PCB while coil is operating
[Beginners]
davekni
September 04, 2024, 06:15:20 AM
post Re: Help with grounding an SSTC & safely storing PCB while coil is operating
[Beginners]
alan sailer
September 04, 2024, 02:13:27 AM
post Help with grounding an SSTC & safely storing PCB while coil is operating
[Beginners]
fillertext
September 03, 2024, 08:44:30 PM
post Re: FFEDBACK INDUCTION HEATER
[Induction Launchers, Coil Guns and Rails guns]
Anders Mikkelsen
September 03, 2024, 04:43:37 PM
post Re: FFEDBACK INDUCTION HEATER
[Induction Launchers, Coil Guns and Rails guns]
radbloke
September 03, 2024, 06:08:20 AM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
September 03, 2024, 05:28:46 AM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
September 03, 2024, 01:34:25 AM
post Re: Questions about electronic tube oscillators
[Beginners]
曹靖
September 02, 2024, 07:00:38 AM
post Re: 8kW CW DRSSTC driven by ZVS (Mazzilli) oscillator
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
September 02, 2024, 05:26:07 AM
post Re: Questions about electronic tube oscillators
[Beginners]
alan sailer
September 01, 2024, 11:58:45 PM
post Re: Questions about electronic tube oscillators
[Beginners]
klugesmith
September 01, 2024, 11:14:46 PM
post Re: Questions about electronic tube oscillators
[Beginners]
曹靖
September 01, 2024, 08:52:49 AM
post Questions about electronic tube oscillators
[Beginners]
曹靖
September 01, 2024, 08:51:22 AM
post Re: High pressure sodium lamp phosphorescence
[Light, Lasers and Optics]
klugesmith
September 01, 2024, 03:19:47 AM
post Re: what should i use for insulators between igbt's and heatsink?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
August 31, 2024, 08:36:20 PM
post LabCoatz Staccato QCW don't work with Primary/Antenna Feedback
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
August 31, 2024, 08:28:14 PM
post Re: Neon sign + an -?
[General Chat]
klugesmith
August 31, 2024, 05:16:06 PM
post Neon sign + an -?
[General Chat]
kenw232
August 31, 2024, 02:31:02 PM
post Re: 2800W server power supply help
[Electronic Circuits]
rikkitikkitavi
August 30, 2024, 12:56:57 PM
post Re: MidiStick V2.0: Next gen tesla coil interrupter
[Computers, Microcontrollers, Programmable Logic, Interfaces and Displays]
SunboX
August 30, 2024, 07:47:55 AM
post Re: Comments and questions on Staccato controller circuit
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
ZakW
August 30, 2024, 05:20:42 AM
post Re: what should i use for insulators between igbt's and heatsink?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Unrealeous
August 30, 2024, 03:38:24 AM
post Re: Comments and questions on Staccato controller circuit
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
Sando3450
August 30, 2024, 02:33:31 AM
post Re: what should i use for insulators between igbt's and heatsink?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
klugesmith
August 30, 2024, 01:41:49 AM
post Re: what should i use for insulators between igbt's and heatsink?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
alan sailer
August 30, 2024, 01:34:01 AM
post Re: what should i use for insulators between igbt's and heatsink?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Unrealeous
August 30, 2024, 12:23:43 AM
post Re: Comments and questions on Staccato controller circuit
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
davekni
August 29, 2024, 10:21:08 PM
post Re: Comments and questions on Staccato controller circuit
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
ZakW
August 29, 2024, 08:54:20 PM
post Comments and questions on Staccato controller circuit
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
Sando3450
August 29, 2024, 05:26:43 PM
post Re: Relationship between Filament and high Volatge on a grounded Cathode Oxford Tube
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
August 29, 2024, 09:52:48 AM
post Re: sky-guided single-circuitboard plasma toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
sky-guided
August 29, 2024, 05:38:42 AM
post Re: designing VTTC
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
unrealcrafter2
August 29, 2024, 12:17:30 AM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
klugesmith
August 28, 2024, 11:59:34 PM
post Re: FPS4000
[High Speed Filming]
buxdahu
August 28, 2024, 05:39:06 PM
post Re: sky-guided single-circuitboard plasma toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
August 28, 2024, 12:36:22 PM
post Re: Relationship between Filament and high Volatge on a grounded Cathode Oxford Tube
[X-ray]
MikeD99
August 28, 2024, 06:53:54 AM
post Re: sky-guided single-circuitboard plasma toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
sky-guided
August 28, 2024, 04:39:27 AM
post Re: sky-guided single-circuitboard plasma toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
August 28, 2024, 04:23:23 AM
post Re: Plasma Toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
sky-guided
August 28, 2024, 03:18:13 AM
post sky-guided single-circuitboard plasma toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
sky-guided
August 28, 2024, 03:16:44 AM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
Domo
August 28, 2024, 12:44:17 AM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mathieu thm
August 27, 2024, 10:31:05 PM
post Re: Relationship between Filament and high Volatge on a grounded Cathode Oxford Tube
[X-ray]
Luca c.
August 27, 2024, 07:16:09 PM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
Anders Mikkelsen
August 27, 2024, 02:58:53 PM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
drobotk
August 27, 2024, 12:06:52 PM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
klugesmith
August 27, 2024, 12:51:27 AM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
Domo
August 26, 2024, 11:01:55 PM
post Re: Building my first DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
drobotk
August 26, 2024, 07:05:33 PM
post Re: Plasma Toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
August 26, 2024, 06:53:06 PM
post Re: Found an old coil full bridge that i did't remember i had... will it work?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ItsChloeUwU
August 26, 2024, 06:50:51 PM
post Re: Found an old coil full bridge that i did't remember i had... will it work?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
AstRii
August 26, 2024, 06:43:24 PM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
Anders Mikkelsen
August 26, 2024, 02:38:49 PM
post Re: Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
PhotonLab
August 26, 2024, 01:31:13 PM
post DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts - New pictures
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
August 26, 2024, 01:10:18 PM
post Re: DIY X-RAY generator made of eBay parts
[X-ray]
PhotonLab
August 26, 2024, 11:45:00 AM
post Found an old coil full bridge that i did't remember i had... will it work?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ItsChloeUwU
August 26, 2024, 09:00:16 AM
post Re: Plasma Toroid
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
sky-guided
August 26, 2024, 06:47:35 AM
post Need feedback on this circuit (flyback driver)
[Beginners]
Domo
August 26, 2024, 05:14:48 AM
post Best Wire for Step-up Transformer?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
TheMadHatter
August 26, 2024, 04:29:12 AM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
August 26, 2024, 04:14:35 AM
post Re: 7809 IC Is Getting Super Hot on the UD 2.7 rev. C
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
verliebt_in_neukölln17
August 26, 2024, 03:01:07 AM
post Using the functional dies of a blown IGBT brick.
[General Chat]
verliebt_in_neukölln17
August 26, 2024, 02:31:29 AM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Anders Mikkelsen
August 25, 2024, 07:53:51 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Da_Stier
August 25, 2024, 06:49:37 PM
post 2800W server power supply help
[Electronic Circuits]
AstRii
August 25, 2024, 06:29:53 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
petespaco
August 25, 2024, 04:33:05 PM
post Teardown of a 3kVA APC Smart-UPS X SMX3000
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
August 25, 2024, 04:30:42 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Da_Stier
August 25, 2024, 01:07:43 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Da_Stier
August 25, 2024, 01:06:11 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Twospoons
August 24, 2024, 11:48:04 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
August 24, 2024, 10:55:02 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Da_Stier
August 24, 2024, 09:00:23 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
klugesmith
August 24, 2024, 05:38:13 PM
post Oscilloscope recommendation for SSTC?
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Damaged1
August 24, 2024, 03:52:15 PM
post Re: IFF Testset teardown and analysis
[Radio Frequency]
Da_Stier
August 24, 2024, 11:19:59 AM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
Da_Stier
August 24, 2024, 11:11:09 AM
post Re: 7809 IC Is Getting Super Hot on the UD 2.7 rev. C
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
August 23, 2024, 06:40:03 AM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
klugesmith
August 23, 2024, 05:23:58 AM
post Re: 7809 IC Is Getting Super Hot on the UD 2.7 rev. C
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
klugesmith
August 23, 2024, 04:21:47 AM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
kenw232
August 23, 2024, 02:39:08 AM
post 7809 IC Is Getting Super Hot on the UD 2.7 rev. C
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ItsChloeUwU
August 22, 2024, 10:33:43 PM
post Re: designing VTTC
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
Matyáš Suchý
August 22, 2024, 09:30:42 PM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
alan sailer
August 22, 2024, 07:09:31 PM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
kenw232
August 22, 2024, 06:58:03 PM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
alan sailer
August 22, 2024, 06:15:03 PM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
kenw232
August 22, 2024, 03:41:44 PM
post Re: How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
alan sailer
August 22, 2024, 03:23:48 PM
post How to wire my flyback?
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
kenw232
August 22, 2024, 01:35:41 AM
post Re: Repairing a pinhole in aluminum pot
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
August 21, 2024, 10:20:32 PM
post Re: Big linear power supply and some design questions
[Electronic Circuits]
rikkitikkitavi
August 21, 2024, 07:59:53 PM

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal