Author Topic: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks  (Read 712 times)

Offline Maverikie

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Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« on: December 07, 2021, 09:34:43 PM »
Hi HV-Members,

(Edit: changed subject title)

Although I'm very happy with the performance of my first SSTC it's time to make it portable. So I want to get rid of the Variac.

I'm unable to raise the voltage above 150 V AC otherwise I'm getting Racing sparks from the primary to secondary. First thing I did was decreasing the coupling coefficient by changing L1 from being close coupled to L2 to getting it spaced with a rubber sheet of 4 mm between L1 and L2. Second thing I did was increasing the length of L1 from 4 winding's to 7 winding's. Third thing was changing from 2.5 mm2 cable tot 1.5 mm2 cable for the primary. I thought that by inchreasing the length and decreasing the thickness of the primary I would get a higher resistance primary and thus decreasing current.

But I'm uncertain if that is the way to go?? I'm getting big (>8cm) racing sparks to L2 when I raise the voltage.

The Half Bridge is like SSTC 5 from Steve or like Kaiser SSTC I. Fres is 250 kHz. See more information below.




« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 09:50:35 PM by Maverikie »

Offline alan sailer

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary causing racing sparks
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2021, 10:27:29 PM »
There are others that have more experience but for my money your coupling of 0.411 is
very, very high.

Cheers.

Offline davekni

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary causing racing sparks
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2021, 05:23:07 AM »
Quote
There are others that have more experience but for my money your coupling of 0.411 is very, very high.
0.411 is high for a DRSSTC.  It is a good value for SSTC, and typical.

Quote
I'm unable to raise the voltage above 150 V AC otherwise I'm getting Racing sparks from the primary to secondary.
The image doesn't show what I see called "racing sparks", which are generally an issue with only DRSSTCs.  Instead it looks like corona discharge between secondary and primary.  Are the "racing sparks" not shown?  If so, can you either photograph them or describe them in more detail (ie to what height up the secondary)?  Do you have a capacitor from half-bridge power (+ or - bus supply) to driver ground (to secondary ground)?  That is necessary to provide a high-frequency current path.  A grounded counterpoise a few cm under the bottom of the secondary may help too.

Quote
First thing I did was decreasing the coupling coefficient by changing L1 from being close coupled to L2 to getting it spaced with a rubber sheet of 4 mm between L1 and L2. Second thing I did was increasing the length of L1 from 4 winding's to 7 winding's. Third thing was changing from 2.5 mm2 cable tot 1.5 mm2 cable for the primary.
Are the JavaTC results and pictures before or after these changes?  If you are happy with performance at 150V and 4 turns, you should get similar results at 230V and 6 turns (roughly same voltage/turn).
David Knierim

Offline Maverikie

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary causing racing sparks
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2021, 10:08:48 PM »
Thanks Davekni,

The racing sparks are not shown on the photo's. It's when I turn the voltage over 150 volts. The spars were big and going from L1 to the middle part of L2. So no direct pad throught the rubber padding, but all the way to the top of the rubber padding, directly to the secondary windings. So thats around 7 to 8 cm spark length.

Bus bar is not connected to ground in any way. See picture of schematic below. JavaTC shown above is after the changes (7 windings on L1).




Offline davekni

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary causing racing sparks
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2021, 06:25:55 AM »
Quote
Bus bar is not connected to ground in any way. See picture of schematic below. JavaTC shown above is after the changes (7 windings on L1).
More common with DRSSTCs, there is often a small capacitor from one side of Vbus (typically -) to ground.  That provides a current path for any secondary-to-primary strikes, making them less likely to cause damage.  May not matter here, but I'm thinking even the corona discharge could couple back to control circuit and confuse the oscillator.

Quote
The racing sparks are not shown on the photo's. It's when I turn the voltage over 150 volts. The spars were big and going from L1 to the middle part of L2. So no direct pad throught the rubber padding, but all the way to the top of the rubber padding, directly to the secondary windings. So thats around 7 to 8 cm spark length.
Thank you for the clarification.  I'm not an expert in coiler terminology, but I think this would be called secondary-to-primary spark.  I think racing sparks refer to the many random arcs from secondary to secondary (lower part of secondary), which may include occasional jumps to the primary.  I had that problem initially on my DRSSTC.

I wonder if the oscillation frequency might be jumping up to the second resonant frequency of the secondary, where the center is high voltage and the top is an anti-node.  Are you using secondary current feedback?  Is the bottom of L4 tied to ground?  (Shown unconnected in schematic.)  There needs to be a capacitor in series with L4 on one side or the other.  Inductors have zero average voltage, while the HC14 input should be centered at 2.5V.  Can you scope gate drive waveform at the point where strikes to the primary start?
David Knierim

Offline Maverikie

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary causing racing sparks
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2021, 09:49:26 PM »
I've tried several things to see what will happen. I think secondary-to-primary sparking is a better description for the phenomenon that is happening. To be clear, I'm using antenna feedback, not GDT feedback as my scheme is indicating

So first thing I tried is to connect the minus side of the bus-bar to ground, which, (ofcourse) tripped the earth leakage breaker in my house. Right now I see you said with a small capacitor  :P. What cap do you suggest?

Next thing I did was decreasing the Antenna size from 40 cm to 10 cm. And I added a center poise ground on L2 ground in the form of aluminum foil. I think this improved the situation a tiny bit.

Next thing I did was to increase L1 from 7 winding to 10 windings of 1.5mm2. That improved the situation a lot, and now I can (almost) increase the voltage to mains (240v AC).

But around 240v AC i'm still seeing sparks going from secondary to primary (or primary to secondary???) See video attached.


Offline davekni

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2021, 06:40:52 AM »
Quote
Right now I see you said with a small capacitor  :P. What cap do you suggest?
These are typically called "Y" caps in power supply terminology, often ~5nF.  Value is not critical.  Too large will trip ground-fault protection.

Quote
Next thing I did was to increase L1 from 7 winding to 10 windings of 1.5mm2. That improved the situation a lot, and now I can (almost) increase the voltage to mains (240v AC).
Sounds about right for 150V * 10 / 7 = 214V.  So one solution is to add one or two more turns.

However, I'm not used to seeing corona around the primary.  Hopefully someone with more SSTC familiarity can contribute ideas.  Also, seeing the arc start at one place consistently makes me think there may be some surface contamination or carbonization.  Is the arc location where the rubber pad wrap ends?  Even if not arcing through the rubber, the thin gap can trap ions and develop a conductive path.  I think most SSTCs use a solid tube between primary and secondary.

I'd also double-check grounding:  Measure DC resistance from top-load to counterpoise.  There should be a path from top through secondary winding to ground and from ground to counterpoise.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 04:28:26 AM by davekni »
David Knierim

Offline Maverikie

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2021, 09:11:46 PM »
These are typically called "Y" caps in power supply terminology, often ~5nF.  Value is not critical.  Too large will trip ground-fault protection.

I had a PME295 capacitor laying around. http://media.it-tronics.de/Datasheets/Capacitors/Filmcaps/Rifa/PME295.pdf
Unfortunately no change in corona on L1.

Quote
Sounds about right for 150V * 10 / 7 = 214V.  So one solution is to add one or two more turns.

I could, but I'm also really wondering why L1 has the corona around the top turns. Hopefully somebody knows?! :-\

Quote
Also, seeing the arc start at one place consistently makes me think there may be some surface contamination or carbonization.  Is the arc location where the rubber pad wrap ends?

No it's not arcing where the rubber wrap ends. I think it's arcing at that spot because heat corbonized the PVC sleeve of the cable at that point. It also seems that the 'corona' is more concentrated at the beginning of L1.

Quote
I'd also double-check grounding:  Measure DC resistance from top-load to counterpoise.  There should be a path from top through secondary winding to ground and from ground to counterpoise.

I did check the ground. Although L2 was grounded directly to mains without counterpoise it seems doing fine. If I add a counterpoise (aluminum foil box, or mesh from an old radio tuner) it is not changing. Driver circuit has floating ground as suggested earlier.

Offline davekni

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2021, 12:36:01 AM »
Quote
I could, but I'm also really wondering why L1 has the corona around the top turns. Hopefully somebody knows?!
Yes, hope you get some other suggestions.  I'm out of ideas.  If you can find a solid plastic tube that fits over your secondary, I'd use that for winding the primary.  I've seen people using plastic flower pots (planting pots).  The taper of a typical plastic container can help, keeping the top of the primary farther away from the secondary due to larger diameter at the top.
David Knierim

Offline Vtroxi

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2021, 01:21:06 AM »
Hi,

although I have not encountered this behavior with SSTCs yet, I have seen very similar primary to secondary arcs during my last VTTC project.
I was not able to fully investigate the issue at the time but my guesses were that a bad impedance match and poor tuning resulted in a bad energy transfer between the primary resonant circuit and secondary coil.
(Possibly resulting in energy building up in the tank circuit and leading to unwanted arcing).
After improving the tuning these issues vanished.

A VTTC has a primary capacitor but an SSTC does not, so I am unsure how much of this can translate to SSTCs because without a capacitor there is no resonant circuit that is building up energy over several oscillations.

What might still be possible is the tuning and impedance matching.
Maybe you're just feeding the primary with way too much energy... You could maybe try to use an inductive ballast to limit the current even more but I guess that's not really what you want...

Maybe the feedback frequency is fluctuating or it's just a bit off. Have your tried to run your coil using a fixed feedback from a signal generator?
Alternatively using a PLL (CD4046) in your driver could help. It would stabilize the frequency and phasing of the drive signal and would even allow you to fine tune the frequency.

(And yes, there is also the obvious option of increasing the spacing between the primary and secondary. It looks a bit too close for me.)

However I am also just quessing right now. Hopefully my ideas helped a bit and further experimentation on your side eliminates the issue.

Best regards,

Vtroxi
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 01:25:12 AM by Vtroxi »

Offline Maverikie

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2021, 09:33:05 PM »
Just want to update the situation. I've raised the voltage to 240 v successfully  ;D.

What was the main reason why it was arcing and why there was corona around the primary? I think the corona on L1 was because of a too high coupling between L1 and L2. The secondary is 90 mm in diameter and the primary was 96 mm. In the new situation the secondary is 100 mm.

And another factor that helped a lot was lowering L1. In the original situation L1 was at around 5 cm above beginning of L2. In the new situation L1 starts at the same height as where L2 starts. At the end I ended up with only 6 turns of 1.5 mm2 wire for the primary

At this moment the coil is running happy at 240 volts with streamers of 30 cm / 12 inch.

Offline davekni

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2021, 05:47:28 AM »
Quote
Just want to update the situation. I've raised the voltage to 240 v successfully  ;D.
Hooray for success!  Congratulations.

Quote
What was the main reason why it was arcing and why there was corona around the primary? I think the corona on L1 was because of a too high coupling between L1 and L2. The secondary is 90 mm in diameter and the primary was 96 mm. In the new situation the secondary is 100 mm.
I suspect coupling itself wasn't the issue.  Many SSTCs have ~0.4 coupling.  More likely the increased L1 to L2 spacing is what helped, reducing electric field (reducing voltage/distance).  Lowering L1 also helped, as L2 voltage is lower at the bottom.  Both changes happen to reduce coupling.  The reduced coupling is a side effect, not the reason for improvement.
David Knierim

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Re: Raising voltage on Primary Primary-to-secondary sparks
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2021, 05:47:28 AM »

 


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post Re: Hi! 811 A tesa coil
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
jpvvv123
January 07, 2022, 10:20:10 PM
post Re: Hi! 811 A tesa coil
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
304er
January 07, 2022, 05:56:28 PM
post Re: First SSTC based on profdc9 PCB Pack
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
January 07, 2022, 05:15:38 AM
post Re: DRSSTC tuning
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
January 07, 2022, 05:01:21 AM
post Re: How to prevent secondary to secondary to primary arcs?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
January 07, 2022, 04:59:59 AM
post Tophat QCW 1
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
dbach
January 07, 2022, 02:27:35 AM
post How to prevent secondary to secondary to primary arcs?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
dbach
January 07, 2022, 02:19:40 AM
post Re: General Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
January 06, 2022, 09:33:06 PM
post Re: First SSTC based on profdc9 PCB Pack
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
alan sailer
January 06, 2022, 06:09:39 PM
post Re: DRSSTC tuning
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
kubajed
January 06, 2022, 04:48:22 PM
post Re: First SSTC based on profdc9 PCB Pack
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
SK1701
January 06, 2022, 03:05:55 PM

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