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Messages - Duane B

Pages: [1] 2 3
1
Well, I'll try to answer your question.

The grid resistor provides the grid operating point for the tube. If a particular tube requires -200 volts on the grid, then that resistor has to have 200 volts across it. The voltage across this resistor is developed from the current in the grid when the grid is driven positive, thus it is a DC voltage. The shunt capacitor across the resistor acts like a filter capacitor and smooths out the pulsating current to make a pure DC value.

The tube also likes to run at a certain current, and this determines the value of the resistor. For example, a certain tube likes to operate at a grid voltage of -200 volts and a grid current of 66.6 ma. The resistor will need to be V/I or 200 V/66.6 ma = 3 k ohms. The resistor power dissipation will be I times V = 13.3 watts. A good wattage value to choose would be 25 watts.

If you happen to choose a smaller value resistor to save power, you would run into problems. For example, say you choose a grid resistor of 500 ohms. The tube still requires a grid bias of -200 volts, so the grid current needed to achieve this is now 200 V/500 ohms = 400 ma. This current is way too high and the tube would quickly destroy itself. By the way, if the tube did not burn itself up the resistor would dissipate 80 watts (200 v times .4 amp).

If you try to use less turns on the feedback coil the drive will be smaller and the output power will also be smaller. I hope it makes sense to you now why the grid resistor is a high value and a relatively high wattage.

2
Beginners / Re: finale design help
« on: February 25, 2022, 04:58:55 AM »
First, I agree with what the others have said. It appears that the root problem has started with your 60 Hz transformer. The secondary voltage is way too high (691 kv?), and this has probably led to a primary capacitor being way too small, which in turn resulted in a primary inductance being way to large.

Before designing your first Tesla coil from scratch, I would suggest building a Tesla coil by following a simple proven design. You will probably have a hard enough time getting it to work correctly and you will learn a lot about Tesla coils in the process. You at least need more theory before attempting to design a Tesla coil.

3
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW questions
« on: February 06, 2022, 06:55:37 PM »
Dave, thanks for your description of arc loading, and for the links for more information. I will study the links and if I have more questions I will post to another thread or start a new topic. I do not want to hijack this thread any more than I have.

4
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW questions
« on: February 05, 2022, 09:24:13 PM »




David, I must start out by saying that I have the greatest respect for you. And I have never used LT Spice before. However, I think you have a problem with your simulated diagram. If I were to draw this diagram it would not have the streamer load as indicated. It would be a secondary coil in series with a resistor in series with the top load capacitance, and that is it (a voltage source in series with an inductance in series with a resistance in series with a capacitance). The resistor is a dynamic resistor. It would be difficult to make calculations with this resistor because it changes resistance with and without sparks, and with how much energy is delivered to the spark. One thing is certain though, there must be a resistor in series with the secondary inductance and capacitance!

I suppose you could use a Thevenin's or Norton's equivalent circuit, and simulate with either a series or parallel circuit, but you diagram has components both in series and parallel.

5
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW questions
« on: February 05, 2022, 08:37:35 PM »
I have re-measured actual resonant frequencies of PRI and SEC

Secondary with toroid & cylinder topload, coil/topload removed from base
======================================
based on JavaTC = 353.3KHz Secondary and topload/s only
based on JavaTC = 343.6KHz sec/toploads/pri/mmc whole system
"series resonance test" signal gen / 10k res = 347KHz
"series resonance test" signal gen / 10k res =  289KHz w/simulated streamers , 40" wire upward

Quote
Your waveforms look more like a single resonant system to me. Scan the primary resonant circuit and see if you get two resonant frequency peaks.
ok, I assume youve built QCW before (?) . I have no idea how they would look like . 'these' waveforms are usually what I see online but sure, I will recheck it later  ;)

No, I have not built QCW before. I don't even know what QCW stands for. I assume the CW is for Continuous Wave, but I have no idea what the Q is for. Maybe I shouldn't have contributed to this post. I thought I might be able to help from what other experience I have had. Your waveforms, re-posted here, reminded me of a single resonant system. The current waveform is the exact thing you get with driving a single resonant system. The hump you see in the beginning transient indicates that the frequency is slightly off resonance. If it were in resonance the current would rise to a maximum and stay at maximum until the driving source stops. Again, this reminds me of a single resonant system.



As far as adding a 40" wire to simulate a streamer, I say that you are only adding capacitance to the secondary and by no means is it simulating a streamer, not by a long shot! I still stand by what I said in my branch off post: the supposed capacitance of the streamer is not changing the frequency.

6
Moving my response to this thread too:
Resistive losses don't change the frequency that much.  Both exist, arc capacitance and arc resistance.  In my limited experience, long thin DRSSTC arcs tend to have less loss relative to capacitance, so capacitance dominates.  Thicker arcs from QCW coils or continuous (not interrupted) SSTC coils tend to have more loss compared to capacitance.


I don’t think resistive losses change the frequency that much either (directly). When sparks break out from the secondary the resistive losses increase greatly. The secondary coil becomes a large sink that has an insatiable thirst for energy. This loss of energy produces a high impedance secondary with a very high dynamic impedance. What I mean by “dynamic impedance” is that after sparks break out the more energy you pump into the secondary coil the more energy will go into the spark. This high impedance change in the secondary changes the coupling between the primary and secondary coils. It is this coupling change that forces the two resonant frequency points farther apart. The frequency change is not due to the capacitance of the spark or directly by the resistive losses.

7
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW questions
« on: February 04, 2022, 06:15:26 PM »
so in summary:
Secondary Fres = 343.6KHz
Primary Fres = 435KHz
91KHz difference. IS this a BIG or small difference? is this NORMAL ? ;D I mean the freq difference. I was thinking maybe a 10-20KHz would do, but I guess it needs bigger difference cuz its higher freq compared to DRs in the 50-150KHz (?)

Are you measuring these frequencies or just using javatc and calculations? I think your primary and secondary are too far off frequency from each other. It does not look like you have reached critical coupling yet between primary and secondary. Your waveforms look more like a single resonant system to me. Scan the primary resonant circuit and see if you get two resonant frequency peaks.

8
This post is a branch off from the topic QCW Questions on the DRSSTC forum here:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=1914.0

Quote from: Uspring on February 03, 2022, 05:33:18 PM
The arc capacitance will decrease the secondary fres and move it closer to the operating frequency. Power transfer to the secondary will increase.
That is different from upper pole operation, which you had previously. In that case the lowering of the secondary fres due to the arc will move secondary fres away from the operating frequency and move the coil out of tune.


I don't think this is correct. I think it is resistive losses in the spark that lowers the lower pole fres, and not added secondary capacity because of the spark. My thoughts are based on doing experiments some 30 years ago with a SS low-impedance base-driven resonator. There is only one resonant frequency with that topology; the resonant frequency of the resonator, and it does not change appreciably when sparks break out. What does change appreaciably when sparks break out is the base impedance of the resonator, and this is due to high resistive losses in the spark. In a dual resonant system, I believe it is the high resistive losses of the spark that move the two poles farther away from each other, and not the capacitance added by the spark.

Thoughts?

9
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: QCW questions
« on: February 04, 2022, 03:55:10 AM »
Deleted. I will start a different thread.

10
Hi all,

:^) Yeah, the 833 is a weird tube with grid and plate pins both on top. Bad thing is several people in the past have accidentally mixed the connections up when they are adjusting/changing things since pins are same size.
Very bad outcome of course!

I also feel that this high voltage negative peak may also be very possible, but overall driving power low.

Several years ago, in the first tube coil of mine that I tried a tall primary I experienced the first time of noticable strange feedback winding behavior. Performance was sub par this way also despite a few changes I tried. Any changes I tried seemed to not be very responsive at all. Very little change, when it should be much more. I then immediately realized since the feedback is up so high now on the secondary that it was now influenced by the voltage rising on the secondary, instead of the primary winding that we want. And since the feedback is grounded...arc over problems too...and I see the arc shield done here, which others have resorted to also when having this problem.

Me, I knew we want to stick to feedback off of our primary. So I just took the whole primary and feedback form and I literally with no changes, just turned it upside down as is so feedback is now on the bottom. Since bottom of secondary is mainly all current, arcs to feedback problems gone. And now we always have the wanted feedback from primary only. I feel this is key to best performance possible.

If you flip this around, experiment slowly to get things tuned up correctly for the feedback. Also feedback leads may need to be switched around for correct phasing after this change.

Ever since I have run into this problem my first time, I now always build my tube coils with the feedback on the bottom below the primary, whether a short primary or tall one. My experience shows that it works much better this way once adjusted correctly of course.

I agree a variable rheostat is the way to go on the grid leak... being able to adjust on the fly is key also to best performance. I sometimes also in conjunction with the rheostat, have a fixed smaller ohm value "safety" resistor with it. That way you do not accidentally turn down to zero resistance. But these days...I mostly run just rheostat only and remember about not doing this.

Chris

Good advice Chris! I agree with everything you say! In the early years of my coiling (about 50 years ago) I followed a two-811A tube coil construction plan and the feedback coil was on the bottom. All of the other plans I saw back then had the feedback coil on the bottom. I don't know when everyone started putting the feedback coil on top? I thought it might be due to some technique of making the coil grow longer sword sparks, but I don't know.

I think the voltage induced in the feedback coil is a complex addition of the coupling between the feedback coil and the primary coil and the feedback coil and the secondary coil. The feedback-secondary transformer having a higher impedance than the feedback-primary transformer.

11
Thanks for the schematic and other details Steve. I don't know why most VTTC's these days use a fixed resistor for the grid bias. The first tube coil that I built had a variable rheostat here and it was part of the tuning process to adjust it. The variable resistor was very useful. Also, I'm sure that you are aware that you don't need a differential meter or probe for what you are measuring. A single high voltage probe would work just as well.

One odd thing as I mentioned earlier is that the voltage goes down as I slide the feedback coil down closer to the primary coil. This is the opposite behavior that I was expecting.

Some of the voltage picked up from your grid feedback coil might be coming from the field of the secondary coil. However, this "secondary coil" energy may not have very much driving power. The high voltage negative peaks that you see on the grid are not loaded down at all. High voltage negative peaks here sound perfectly normal. The grid coil is only loaded when the grid goes positive, pushing current through the 5k resistor, and developing a negative DC voltage across the 5k resistor in the process. This voltage of course will not be a pure DC value because the plate supply is not running in CW mode. The voltage across the 5k resistor is the grid bias voltage though. The parallel capacitor keeps the high frequency voltage off the resistor. You should be able to measure it with the scope. This is the voltage that is referenced in the tube data charts for grid operating voltage. This grid bias voltage may be controlled more by the proximity of the feedback coil to the plate tank coil instead of the secondary coil, because the plate tank coil probably has more driving power than the secondary coil.

I think the voltage you should be most concerned with is the DC voltage across the 5k resistor.


12
Right now I have a lot of questions. In the pictures on your link, it looks like the feedback coil is going to the top terminal (s) on the tube. Are the top terminals the grid connection? Can you share a schematic? Where does the low end of the feedback coil connect? What is the DC voltage on the low side of the feedback coil? A voltage of -5000 volts peak might be ok. I believe it's the minus DC voltage that is used in the specs.

There might be something wrong with your measurement technique? Is your meter capable of measuring a high voltage differentially between the probes, or will it just measure a smaller differential voltage but elevated at a high voltage?

It seems like the probe connected to high voltage is picking up some of the secondary voltage. Are you physically measuring the voltage directly on the grid, or physically measuring it at the top of the feedback coil (close to the secondary coil)? There might be capacitive coupling between the probe and the secondary coil.

13
Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC) / Re: Hi! 811 A tesa coil
« on: January 10, 2022, 09:38:53 PM »

Question for Duane:
Do you agree the MOT core looks too close robbing primary energy?

I think the core is close and probably does have an energy robbing effect. However, the high frequency energy may not penetrate the iron core that deep. It may not be causing too much of a problem. I would have to experiment with it to see if it is that much of a factor.

To reduce power draw until the coil is/can be tuned better, the 5k grid resistor can be increased to 7k or 8k ohms. This would increase the negative grid bias and reduce average plate current. The 811 coil I built many years ago had a variable rheostat for the grid resistor and it could be adjusted while the coil was in operation.

14
Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC) / Re: Hi! 811 A tesa coil
« on: January 09, 2022, 05:52:11 AM »
You mentioned that the circuit breaker on your isolation transformer is still tripping. If it is only rated at 250 watts then the isolation transformer is way too small. I wouldn't be surprised if the voltage reaching the primary of the MOT is below 100 volts. Like Chris mentioned, the current draw from this VTTC should be 10-14 amps. This equates to 1000 to 1500 watts. Why are you using an isolation transformer anyway? Get rid of the isolation transformer. Use a 15-amp fuse in the primary wiring. The MOT and filament transformer provides isolation without using another isolation transformer.

15
Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC) / Re: MonsterDR
« on: December 21, 2021, 04:21:38 AM »
Great looking coil! Congratulations!

16
Very impressive! Rising from the dead, or being born again, maybe you should call that coil the Phoenix?

17
Hi Cory, welcome to this forum. What kind of coil are you trying to build for your first? Looking forward to seeing what you publish!

Hi Riley, welcome to the forum also. Nice videos on your YouTube channel! Good luck on your future builds!

18
Going along with some ideas by Uspring, you could wind the secondary bifilar, then you would be able to send up a DC (or AC) voltage to the top of the coil to make a small ignition spark or heat something up.

In our linear accelerators there is a pulse transformer that develops 125 kV at around 85 amps. The secondary of this pulse transformer is bifilar wound so it can send up 240 vac to power a klystron filament transformer to produce 7.7 volts at 30 amps (elevated at the 125 kV voltage)

Another idea may be to make an AC ground at the base of the secondary with a capacitor, then send a DC voltage up the secondary to start corona.

19
A 2mm gap might be troublesome with thermal expansion, dirt and debris over time. You might be better off increasing the distance of the gap and installing some type of MOV across the bus.

20
Great looking system! I like the ferrite transformer. What frequency does this run at? I was wondering how good this would work at driving the base of a Tesla resonator? Much more powerful than anything I have tried!

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[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 08:59:26 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 10, 2024, 06:35:30 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 10, 2024, 05:35:14 PM
post Medium Drsstc question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 03:07:02 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:42:12 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:41:04 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
sky-guided
April 10, 2024, 02:50:23 AM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Unrealeous
April 10, 2024, 01:32:17 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:26:29 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:18:35 AM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 09, 2024, 07:34:19 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 09, 2024, 06:14:27 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
April 09, 2024, 06:08:53 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 09, 2024, 05:15:19 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 09, 2024, 05:11:04 PM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
April 09, 2024, 06:32:16 AM
post DRSSTC V1 using BSM150
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Unrealeous
April 09, 2024, 04:04:47 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
April 09, 2024, 03:27:11 AM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
April 09, 2024, 03:25:47 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 09, 2024, 03:01:40 AM

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