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Messages - Lane

Pages: [1]
1
Bert911: Thanks for the tip about the 3M coating material. I'm still not sure if a coating will contaminate my work in some way; but I'll keep looking into that, and will try something as I continue this process.

Pete: You made some great observations about the coil voltage; I think I had seen the 3 x Pi voltage reference somewhere before. I would have been scared to connect to my scope, and I'm really glad you did it for the sake of science (as others have pointed out). One question I still have; is it safe to touch the coil when running? I avoid it of course; but I've always been curious. You don't have to try that yourself of course...

Yes; working with 220V circuits is something to be careful with; but it's commonplace outside the US. Here in the US one has to be even more careful because it's tapping two legs. There doesn't appear to be anything strange about this board though (nothing extra is going to go hot when connected). There is no physical power switch, and the input section is isolated from the rest of the circuit. I'm planning to put it on a two pole breaker for a power switch as a safety measure. After inspecting the schematic I posted previously, and comparing to this 3,500W unit's board; I noticed only a few minor differences. The capacitors on the output are larger, some components have a higher current rating, and a few other minor things to note. All the board component labels are different; but otherwise the values and connections are almost all identical. At some point I'll try to relabel the schematic based on this circuit for reference purposes.

I had to pick up some 100k thermistor fuses to connect to the boards temperature sensor ports. I'm planning to run them outside the furnace insulation so they don't see anything close to internal temperatures. I'm hoping thats enough to keep the controller from shutting down. Being power adjustable; I'm planning to start testing at the lowest setting once I'm ready to juice it up. Just waiting for a meter capable of measuring coil inductance. I also don't know what the output voltage for the fans is on the board; if it's 18v I'm going to have to order some new fans for long term use.

I went through a few theoretical coil designs. Two 20' spools of 1/4" copper tubing would create almost exactly a 120µH coil  if connected end to end without any shaping. A 50' spool makes some other designs possible as well. I got a 1kg and 3kg graphite crucible to work with. Also a larger 6kg A shape silicon carbide crucible which I haven't tested; but read should work with induction heating. 

The 48v 2,500W unit showed up here the other day, but I haven't had a chance to wire and mount it.

Has there been any testing of the limits in terms of coil frequency with 48V 1,000W or 2,500W units? Should I grab a 1,000W board to sacrifice and push those limits? Since I'm already working with larger coils, it's not much trouble (and smaller coils are easy). Looked at running solid copper for the 120µH coil; but even with furnace insulation I wasn't sure it would stay cool enough. An 1,800C infrared pyrometer showed up; but I haven't been successful measuring metal temperatures in the small crucibles yet. I get almost no heat detected through the ceramic insulation. Not sure about the emissivity setting though (and my graphite is almost powder so it barely glows at the moment).

2
Earlier Self quote: pulled 14A again with a very degraded (empty) crucible. So I'm back in production with the 1,000W unit.

Figured I would post a bit more technical detail while I'm thinking about it; and can test things again. Here is a look at my collection of new and degraded crucibles. I get at least 20 full heating cycles (>2,000F) out of graphite crucible with a ceramic fiber insulation mostly insulating things (seems like the more the better). Those heats take between 1.5 minutes and 3 minutes depending on how used the crucible is. I can get closer to 50 total heating/cooling cycles (before the crucible turns to dust) if those are split between full melt temperature and lower temperature annealing cycles. I've read that a paint on ceramic coating might help prolong the life of off the shelf pure graphite crucibles.

The 2 oz. crucibles are on the right; and a selection of cut 40mm (largest), 6 oz. and 3 oz. on the left. Due to wall thickness and density differences; the cut 40mm, cut 6 oz. and uncut 3 oz. all weigh between 25-30 grams; while the 2 oz. is only 13.5 grams (when new).

This particular setup draws around 19A with a 30 gram graphite crucible partially inside a 3 three turn 2 layer 45mm I.D. coil. I could likely draw more current if I fully submerged the crucible; but I'm already near the upper limit of a 1,000W unit; so I tune current draw by moving the crucible up and down. I have tried an uncut 40mm x 40mm crucible at 44 grams; and it draws far too much current this way.

While these are small; the whole range of crucibles all used 20Wh of energy to hit the >2,000F metric. It's a bit less than 20Wh with a warm graphite crucible; and can be a hair more with a larger load of metal. While the lighter 13.5 gram 2 oz. crucible draws less current; it still required 20Wh to hit melting temperature. Clearly data isn't going to hold up with larger melts; but it's a starting point in terms of my observations this far. I rarely go over an ounce in terms of metal weight with this setup; so that is very much negligible in terms of heating power/time for me.

I'm curious to see what I can do with kilogram sized crucibles; but a quick check indicates that a 1kg crucibles weights 140-160 grams, 2kg 240-330? grams, 3kg 340-360 grams, 4kg 447 grams, 5 kg 690 grams. Those were the best ranges I could find in terms of weights from product listings at least...

Unfortunately I can't tell what frequency my current furnace is operating at; or what my coil inductance is. The LC100 meter I bought years ago arrived broken (displays an error when attempting to measure low range inductance). Waiting on a replacement to show up now that I actually need one. Still need to build a frequency counter display when I get around to it as well.

Obviously Pete's work has helped me a quite a bit in getting this far; thank you very much (again) for all that. I'll try to condense some of data collection to post up as I have time. Here is a quick look at a melt cycle for 2.900 grams of non-ferrous (group 11). Took only 15Wh, and 1:35 seconds even in a heavily degraded crucible. That old wiring might have hobbled some of my early data (too much energy usage for same work); but even so, breaking 2,000F in 1 min 30 seconds is totally decent either way in my opinion. Here is a look at the meter pre-melt (from cold temp), cold furnace; first start wattage/current, then furnace color and final Wh count.

3
Thanks Pete. I looked at the 1,000W unit more closely with a clear head. There was a good amount of heat introduced to the end of the wire due to a poor quality connection where the wire met the standoffs. I cut off the end of the wire and checked the screws into the PCB (all still tight). Put everything back together, and it pulled 14A again with a very degraded (empty) crucible. So I'm back in production with the 1,000W unit.

On the other hand; I have a 3,500W unit showing up in the mail tomorrow. I don't know all that much about it at the moment. It was $35 though; so I figured it was worth an experiment or two. Even if I only use it for simple tasks it's a good deal at that price. I was able to find a very similar model that had a schematic in the manual. There appear to be some very minor differences between the schematic and this board; like the prescribed inductance of the work coil. The microcontroller appears to be socketed; so it might not be too difficult to start fresh with customized software down the road. In the mean time; I would be happy to have some level of power control and a timer. Definitely planning to use coils that aren't pancake shaped for these experiments. Looked over your work coil spreadsheet Pete, and it appears I may want to add capacitors to this unit? Hitting the specified 120µH coil inductance (20-30kHz operating freq.) might be hard going by the data you've published.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07M64PGH3

Also have a 48V 2,500W unit a few days out; but don't have any serious plans for that extra power yet. I simply need another unit online so I can allow one to be cooling while I continue with other hot work.

4
Just before my first near-catastrophic failure. There was a bright light in the wiring of the induction coil feed cable. Should have known better with those fat copper tails hanging around on top of the bad connection. Fact is; I am not sure what to use for a PCB connector with this type of 8 ga. stranded wire. This wired setup does help to isolate the coil/work heat from the PCB. Unfortunately those hookup parts that came with this 1000W unit were always junk.

Been running this for quite some time... At 24v briefly, then 48v; with a factory new chopped off 20mm (height) x 40mm (diameter) dense graphite crucible floating in the coil; it can draw in excess of 18A at 48v. As the crucible degrades it drops down as low as 10A. Still getting little more than 20Wh consumption when heating the larger crucible to melting temperature (though it's quite short and small in volume).

Tough to see; but the HAZ on those copper strands is widely varied. Some of them were glowing red hot after a very short heating session. I had to cut it off at 7Wh when I smelled burning. Time to refactor; not sad that I got a lot of milage out of this already (7,500 Wh and more than a dozen 20-40mm diameter crucibles).

5
Nice to find this place. I've been playing with induction on and off for a while; but just now trying to wrap my head around this beast. I thought it was strange at first that only 5% of the power was going in to melt a non-ferris metal; but then I ran the numbers of specific heat of graphite...

Then we can talk about mass of graphite, position in/around the coil, size, volume, exposed area, coupled volume, etc... I'm not at all shocked someone was able to melt a few kg with 1000W in an hour with good insulation. I've recently found some good references on painting a ceramic coating on (by yourself) to standard graphite crucibles though; that should help a lot to avoid oxidation. Heating for a full hour might require a different coil setup, loading method, etc.

I was curious about why bronze casting might be bad with induction... I presume melting copper first and then adding bronze would work just fine. Just might not be able to load the crucible full of scrap bronze up front?

I've got a lot to read; and a lot to learn, but sounds like a few of you have it under control here to some extent. My early experiments proved about 20 Wh consistently heated a 20mm crucible to copper melting temperate. Even as the crucible degraded (and current dropped); the 20 Wh metric was still sound. Look forward to comparing numbers on larger metal pours with you all. Hey Pete (you specifically know I'm not melting copper metal)!

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