Author Topic: Circuit Function  (Read 1764 times)

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Circuit Function
« on: October 25, 2022, 07:12:59 PM »
I recently got a look inside an old Spellman 30kV powers supply and have a question about the HV side of the circuit.



The secondary inductor is a beautiful are core unit coupled to the primary inductor which is driven by a multiple transistor
circuit. I curious as to what the diode/capacitor circuit does. It seems like a multiplier but the out put of this circuit goes to a silicone rubber potted assembly that looks like it contains a tripler circuit (complete guess here). If the potted assembly is a tripler then it would need an AC input.

I'd try an simulate it but I only use LTSpice once every five years and have to relearn the whole process from scratch. Which normally takes a few hours.

Offline klugesmith

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2022, 07:26:33 PM »
Very interesting.  Looks like the HV winding connects to two voltage doublers, of opposite polarity, sharing a common node with "bottom" end of the winding and not Ground.   I think the result is a quadrupler with lower output resistance than other configurations using same capacitor values, and more balanced stress on the components.  DC output, which make the potted thing a mystery.

For purposes of discussion, can you give the C's and D's reference designator numbers?   Maybe even also identify the nodes (N1-N6 would do), a thing required for SPICE simulation before schematic entry was available. Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 07:37:43 PM by klugesmith »

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2022, 01:50:15 AM »
I'm not sure about the node labels but here are the parts.



Also a photo of the unit. It's so nice and clean.



I like old style structural electronics. The new electronics
can do amazing things but it looks like debris glued to a board.

Offline klugesmith

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2022, 07:48:55 PM »
Beautiful. Note anti-corona balls at the free ends of upper capacitors. Can we see picture of the primary coil? Does the unit work, or you want to make it work?

We definitely have a voltage doubler on each side, not very different from microwave oven power supply.  When top of HV winding is positive, current in D4 charges C2 negative-on-right.   When top of HV winding is negative, C2 voltage adds to that & charges C4 to double voltage negative-on-right through D3.   Etc.

>> I like old style structural electronics.

Me too.   Has design of electrical substations changed much in 21st century?  https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/7-design-diagrams-hv-substation-engineer
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 08:14:56 PM by klugesmith »

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2022, 08:45:13 PM »
kugesmith,

Thanks so much. I'm not interested in making it work right now. I'll take a picture of the primary but it is not a simple single coil. Several taps etc.

The whole power supply was initially exciting but I soon realized that to make it work would require external signals., some sort of control module.
I have a homebrew 30kV power supply that isn't as fancy or well regulated as the Spellman but does the job. I don't really need another.

So if each side is a voltage doubler then the output is four times ref to ground? Also, since the caps are rated 15kV for the lowest, the input AC would be 7.5kV?

Times 4 gives the 30kV rated voltage.

This means that the black box is not a multiplier. I may break it part to see whats up.

Sorry if I seem too lazy to do the work with LTSpice. I always dread the process of figuring out how to run the program. I addition I am fighting medical/mental issues that make concentration more difficult than usual.

I also stop to admire HV substations. There is also an element of fear.

A short story about an event that has haunted me for years. The local highway high point is the Conejo Grade. Running across the top over the freeway are a series of high tension transmission lines. Back in the 80's I was driving home from work and saw a bunch of fire trucks around the base of one of the pylons. The next day I found out why. A group of kids decided to climb up the pylons for a look. They explored and were heading back when one kid stood up and got flashed. He lived for a while after but died of the burns. The idea of him sitting on the top of the pylon, in shock, waiting for the firemen to get him down has always terrified and saddened me. The kid wasn't hurting anyone and he died because of his mistake.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 08:54:03 PM by alan sailer »

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2022, 12:27:35 AM »
So I di tear open the black box. I found various smoothing, voltage monitoring stuff. Caps and resistors. Nice 40kV stuff.

If anyone is curious I can post a schematic. Otherwise the chances that the information will be useful to anyone are on the order of one over the half life of the proton.

Offline klugesmith

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: +22/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2022, 07:59:06 PM »
What do they call that coil winding style, which strongly influences self capacitance?
Here's a specimen that has Christmas tree influences.

Offline MRMILSTAR

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
  • Karma: +20/-0
  • Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2022, 09:45:32 PM »
The term that I've seen used for this type of winding is "basket winding".
Steve White
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Retired electrical engineer

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2022, 10:15:29 PM »
mrmstar has it. The other terms are listed here,

https://dbpedia.org/page/Basket_winding

When I was going down the brain melting road of trying to make my own HV AC coils I bought the plans for something called the Gingery
Coil Winding Machine. It worked, sort of, with larger diameter wire.

But in the end it reminded me of sewing, which also drives me crazy. I want the stuff I'm working on to stay still...

High Voltage Forum

Re: Circuit Function
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2022, 10:15:29 PM »

 


* Recent Topics and Posts

post Re: Big Coil Build Log
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
Today at 05:47:34 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
davekni
Today at 04:45:07 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
Today at 04:18:27 AM
post Push Pull VTTC
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
janno288
Today at 01:10:08 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 27, 2024, 10:54:52 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
March 27, 2024, 11:53:42 AM
post Re: OCD Triggering Early + Low Output
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 05:14:36 AM
post Re: Is the UD2.7C under voltage lock out basically worthless?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 04:47:48 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 04:41:59 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 27, 2024, 12:04:34 AM
post Re: Super flat QCW simulation (does this look reasonable?)
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
toooldforthis
March 26, 2024, 11:08:14 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 11:07:20 PM
post Re: Is the UD2.7C under voltage lock out basically worthless?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 10:46:29 PM
post OCD Triggering Early + Low Output
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 26, 2024, 09:03:43 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 26, 2024, 08:46:59 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 26, 2024, 05:02:18 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 26, 2024, 03:16:03 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
Anders Mikkelsen
March 26, 2024, 01:41:49 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 04:48:22 AM
post Re: Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 26, 2024, 04:16:37 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:16:24 AM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:13:02 AM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:00:43 AM
post Re: Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 03:19:18 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
thedoc298
March 26, 2024, 01:50:42 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 25, 2024, 08:05:02 PM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
March 25, 2024, 07:41:29 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 25, 2024, 06:45:46 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 25, 2024, 05:44:25 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
Anders Mikkelsen
March 25, 2024, 04:47:17 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 25, 2024, 04:27:22 PM
post Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 25, 2024, 03:57:34 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
March 25, 2024, 02:06:41 PM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
KrisPringle
March 25, 2024, 04:43:25 AM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
March 25, 2024, 02:39:40 AM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
KrisPringle
March 25, 2024, 12:47:09 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 24, 2024, 07:36:32 PM
post Re: My completed 14-stage Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 24, 2024, 07:27:24 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 24, 2024, 04:25:23 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 10:47:35 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 09:30:21 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 04:34:31 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 03:04:25 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 01:38:34 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 04:20:03 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
davekni
March 23, 2024, 12:54:30 AM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 23, 2024, 12:05:57 AM
post capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 22, 2024, 11:45:03 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
OmGigaTron
March 22, 2024, 11:30:09 PM
post Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
March 22, 2024, 10:20:35 PM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Benbmw
March 22, 2024, 09:21:13 PM
post Re: What actually kills MOSFETs?
[Beginners]
AstRii
March 22, 2024, 03:37:11 PM
post What actually kills MOSFETs?
[Beginners]
FPS
March 22, 2024, 05:09:20 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 22, 2024, 03:57:54 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 22, 2024, 02:59:25 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 21, 2024, 06:31:42 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
rikkitikkitavi
March 21, 2024, 03:08:01 PM
post Re: [WTS] IGBT, Ferrite, Capacitors, Tools, PSU, Industrial components and parts
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
Mads Barnkob
March 21, 2024, 01:37:32 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Alberto
March 21, 2024, 11:42:07 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 21, 2024, 04:09:14 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 21, 2024, 02:15:31 AM
post My Homemade Structural Analysis X-Ray Machine
[X-ray]
Luca c.
March 21, 2024, 01:35:40 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 20, 2024, 10:40:00 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 08:03:41 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 07:51:57 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 10:39:47 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 20, 2024, 04:09:59 AM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 20, 2024, 01:13:23 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 20, 2024, 12:45:16 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 20, 2024, 12:30:30 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 11:12:24 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:47:49 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:44:19 PM
post Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 19, 2024, 06:52:09 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 19, 2024, 05:02:44 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 05:01:41 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 04:31:02 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 03:59:54 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 06:41:39 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
davekni
March 19, 2024, 04:05:49 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
OmGigaTron
March 18, 2024, 09:08:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 09:07:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 08:57:06 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 18, 2024, 03:51:33 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:59:46 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:33:25 PM
post Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 11:02:12 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 02:36:11 AM
post Re: Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 17, 2024, 07:42:55 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:15:14 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 05:05:04 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
March 17, 2024, 04:50:51 AM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 17, 2024, 04:45:17 AM
post 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:17:51 AM
post Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
March 17, 2024, 01:29:32 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 17, 2024, 12:33:06 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 16, 2024, 08:46:20 PM
post Re: Bleeder resistor for MMC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:39:24 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:21:44 PM
post Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
yourboi
March 16, 2024, 08:20:13 PM

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal