Author Topic: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors  (Read 1341 times)

Offline Mads Barnkob

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The Vishay PhMKP 400.3.12,50 PFC capacitors are manufactured for power factor correcting applications. They contain 3x 82.9 uF capacitor elements wired in Delta, for 3 phase AC connection directly to them. To use this capacitor with a DC voltage, we need to short out one of the elements, and can use two of the capacitor elements.

The capacitor is rated for a maximum voltage of 1000 V, being a self-healing MKP type, they can withstand some abuse. The 1 minute terminal-to-terminal test voltage is given as 2.2 times nominal voltage 415 VAC. Doubling that AC figure to DC is 900 VDC, as its the same voltage swing. This results in a datasheet-based maximum voltage rating of 1800 VDC for two of these in series. I want to abuse them a little more.

Measurements of the individual capacitor elements, showed a capacitance of 106 to 117 uF. CORRECTION: I made a mistake an did not notice that while I was measuring across one element, I had two other parallel elements in series, due to the Delta connection of the capacitor. I wrongly stated them as 110 uF, where its the specified rating of 83 uF that is correct.The conclusion on these capacitors is to be in very good shape, with very little tear, despite coming from a used and discarded power factor correcting electrical cabinet. It could have been discarded due to age, as each capacitor or capacitor bank was switched in with a regular electrical contactor. It was properly replaced by a more modern approach with continues regulation.

Wiring the two 110 83 uF elements, in a single can, in parallel, doubles the capacitance to 220 166 uF. Wiring two of these cans in series, results in 110 83 uF at the double voltage rating. Having ten of these arrangements, results in a capacitor bank of 1100 830 uF rated for an estimated 3000 VDC. Reality turned out to be somewhat lower, as internal arcing could be heard around 2700-2800 VDC. 2500 VDC seemed like a stable charge level.



Estimation of the possible short circuit energy. There is no ESR given in the datasheet, so we have to piece together some information. Inrush current is given as 300 times nominal current. Nominal current for the PhMKP 400.3.12,50 is 18 A (at 415VAC 50 Hz). By Ohms law we can calculate the internal resistance from the inrush current figure. Around 30 kA.



Schematic



Aluminium foil explosions and a crushed can. All can also be seen in the video.

2.2kJ 1.66 kJ


3.5kJ 2.6 kJ






« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 07:29:44 PM by Mads Barnkob »
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Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2024, 10:18:46 PM »
Capacitor banks are great fun! If you can constrain the work coil, your can achieve a much better pinch. I made a G10 work coil holder which does an excellent job of constraining the work coil which also allows it to be re-used if the energy level is kept reasonable.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2024, 10:05:02 PM by MRMILSTAR »
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Offline davekni

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2024, 08:05:36 PM »
Quote
Capacitor banks are great fun! If you can constrain the work coil, your can will achieve a much better pinch. I made a G10 work coil holder which does an excellent job of constraining the work coil which also allows it to be re-used if the energy level is kept reasonable.
Besides constraining expansion, wire/insulation type is a huge factor.  I ran many experiments when building my quarter shrinker back in 2002.  Magnet wire was the very worst, but other solid copper wire was not great.  Solid copper breaks, forcing arcs across breaks to continue current flow.  The best is stranded wire with tough but stretchy insulation.  The strands break at random places and slide by each other allowing for more continuous conduction.  Stretchy insulation avoids bypass arcs longer.  Too soft insulation causes wire to break out of insulation, so isn't good.  The best wire I found had radiation-crosslinked PVC.  (I presume this PVC has some plasticizer added.)  Any stranded wire I tried was better than solid.

BTW, for large higher-voltage line frequency (PFC) caps, I've heard they last ~150 discharges in such pulse applications.  Perhaps that was from somewhere on this forum.  I don't recall.  Will be interesting to see if these smaller ones survive any longer (if this setup gets much use).  3.5kJ is enough for coin shrinking with optimized work coil.

Anyone have thoughts on how to make something like this safe enough and portable enough to set up at a Maker Faire or other public showing?  I heard that someone set up quarter shrinking at one of the San Francisco Maker Faires.
David Knierim

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2024, 10:10:56 PM »
I have been using 10 AWG double-build magnet wire with no failure yet after about 20 can crushes. The maximum voltage I have used is 5500 volts which corresponds to about 1500 Joules with my Aerovox capacitor. This will cut a can completely in half. More typically I use 4500 volts, which is about 1000 Joules,  to get a very good theta pinch on a can. I have been using my G10 coil holder.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2024, 05:20:18 AM by MRMILSTAR »
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Offline davekni

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2024, 04:49:16 AM »
Quote
I have been using 10 AWG double-build magnet wire with no failure yet after about 20 coin shrinks. The maximum voltage I have used is 5500 volts which corresponds to about 1500 Joules with my Aerovox capacitor.
I can see that making sense.  I doubt any of the magnet wire I tested had double-build insulation.  More important, I'd guess, is your mechanical containment.  Probably prevents wire from fracturing during discharge.  Also, most of my coils were double-layer to match higher voltage and lower capacitance, and more compact for coin shrinking rather than can crushing.  I did play a tiny bit with can crushing, both aluminum and steel, but not with a range of wire for that.
David Knierim

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2024, 05:22:43 AM »
Sorry, I had to correct myself. I meant 20 consecutive can crushes, not coin shrinks. I corrected my original post. My mind was elsewhere. For coin shrinking, I use 12 AWG double-build magnet wire but the coil is sacrificial.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2024, 08:20:16 PM by MRMILSTAR »
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Offline Mads Barnkob

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2024, 07:31:44 PM »
CORRECTION: I made a mistake an did not notice that while I was measuring across one element, I had two other parallel elements in series, due to the Delta connection of the capacitor. I wrongly stated them as 110 uF, where its the specified rating of 83 uF that is correct.

I updated the main post, but can not edit video :)

This makes a MKP banks just that more scary, when its in fact much lower energy than I thought and compared with, and its still more powerful.

Dave: I think I have mentioned the 100-200 shot figure in other threads, as that seemed to be what I got from my other projects, before failures. Denmark is just not a land filled with Maxwell pulse caps :(
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Offline davekni

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2024, 03:46:28 AM »
Quote
I updated the main post, but can not edit video :)
A couple of my youtube videos have mistakes too.  I add a note about the mistake in the description text below video.  Hopefully anyone interested enough to care about technical details will read the video description.

Quote
Dave: I think I have mentioned the 100-200 shot figure in other threads, as that seemed to be what I got from my other projects, before failures. Denmark is just not a land filled with Maxwell pulse caps :(
There not easy to find here in USA either, at least not at a reasonable price, but probably more so than other places.  I think most of the supply of used caps here comes from national laboratories running nuclear fusion simulations etc., sold in bulk as surplus when no longer needed, purchased in large lots by individuals, who then sell them for >10x their cost as individual caps.
David Knierim

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Re: Pulse Power High Current Discharges from 3 Phase PFC Capacitors
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2024, 03:46:28 AM »

 


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