Author Topic: finale design help  (Read 2740 times)

Offline benet

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finale design help
« on: February 23, 2022, 08:47:47 PM »
I am currently trying to design my first Tesla coil. It is very simple, and I know there are ways to make a more optimized design but I'm mainly focusing on having as few points of failure as possible. Even with that, as I've been trying to calculate the exact proportions of it there are a lot of things that seem quite off. For instance, the number of turns on the primary coil seems much higher than I usually see on other coils. And when I ran the design through JAVATC it said that there was no resonant frequency for the primary circuit. Attached is my schematic (sorry that it’s so messy). If anyone can explain the issues I found or knows of any other mistakes in the design that would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. 

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2022, 09:40:44 PM »
I was too lazy to enter all of your parameters into JAVATC so here are my impressions.

Your intuition is correct. 120 turns is far too many for a primary coil. I think that 80 pF is much too small a capacitance. Increasing the capacitance will reduce the number of turns on the primary coil.

You also need to reverse the positions of the capacitor and the spark gap. Both topologies will work but placing the spark gap across the power supply secondary coil will be less stressful on the transformer. Having the capacitor across the power supply secondary coil can allow high frequency high voltage transients to feed back into the transformer which can damage it.

By the way, what sort of power supply transformer are you using? Its not clear from your diagram.

You have discovered the value of JAVATC. Don't buy or build anything until the output of JAVATC makes sense.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 05:29:01 AM by MRMILSTAR »
Steve White
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Offline klugesmith

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2022, 11:26:14 PM »
I'm not a "coiler", but expect that Steve is a trustworthy adviser there.
It's generally good practice to include some wired or resistive ground connection in both primary and secondary circuits of the power transformer, so they have a predictable potential with respect to the rest of the world.

WHere did you get the idea of primary transformer stepping from 120 volts to over 600 kilovolts?  (and what is the size of spark gap?)
I bet there is no such thing in the world; the voltage ratio is crazy. We can let other coilers comment from experience. 
14.4 kV potential transformers or pole transformers, sure. 
15 kV, with 30mA or 60mA current limiting, is common in NST's.   
65 or 70 kV in dental x-ray transformers, designed for around 10 mA output, operating for not more than 1 second of every minute.   
Bigger diagnostic X-ray transformers have outputs up to 125 kV, generally with grounded center tap in secondary, and 240 volts at primary.  A very steep ratio, justified for a specific and important application.  Absolutely operated under oil.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 11:35:25 PM by klugesmith »

Offline Duane B

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2022, 04:58:55 AM »
First, I agree with what the others have said. It appears that the root problem has started with your 60 Hz transformer. The secondary voltage is way too high (691 kv?), and this has probably led to a primary capacitor being way too small, which in turn resulted in a primary inductance being way to large.

Before designing your first Tesla coil from scratch, I would suggest building a Tesla coil by following a simple proven design. You will probably have a hard enough time getting it to work correctly and you will learn a lot about Tesla coils in the process. You at least need more theory before attempting to design a Tesla coil.
Duane Bylund

Offline benet

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2022, 05:24:04 AM »
Thank you for your advice. It definitely was not a good idea to not try to build and design for the first time Both at once so, I probably will end up building a pre-made design. That being said I am still very invested in trying to figure out why my design did not work and then learning from that.

The way I got to the coupling for the primary transformer was by starting with the wattage and calculating what the spark length would be. From there I used the distance the electricity would have to jump to find the volts. I worked backwards knowing that would be the end voltage I used the recommended coupling from https://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/tesla-coils/drsstc-design-guide/secondary-coil/ to find the voltage for the primary circuit. I had to figure out the coupling of the primary transformer from the difference between the circuit and my source which in my case where is modeled off of a standard American outlet. 

MRMILSTAR was asking about the capacitance I got there from using the recommended size for the primary coil and the recommended resonant frequency to find the top load. I then used the coupling to get the primary resonant circuit.   

 

 

Offline klugesmith

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2022, 05:32:09 PM »
Sounds like a plan, Benet.  Go make something.  You don't need a commercial kit, but you should start with a simple design and have modest expectations.

What formula did you use for step 1:
from input power (120 V wallplug) to spark length of 72 inches?
I guess it would make some coilers laugh out loud.

Please learn not to use the word "coupling" when referring to a voltage ratio.
It's not hard to make two transformers with same voltage ratio and very different coupling.
Even easier to make two transformers with same coupling coefficient and very different voltage ratios.
Reminds me of your question, in another thread, about turns ratios and inductance.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 05:47:51 PM by klugesmith »

Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2022, 06:05:14 PM »
There are two primary methods that people use to design a SGTC. This is because these are the two most difficult and expensive items to obtain.

The first method is to start with the transformer that you can get. For a beginner this will be either an old-style NST without GFE or two MOTs in series. I highly recommend the NST because it is safer and easier to make a spark gap fire consistently. It should have a voltage output of at least 10 KV RMS for ease of spark gap firing.

The second method is to start with whatever suitable HV capacitors that you can obtain within your budget. You can't use just any capacitors. They must be rated for energy discharge applications. Here is a list of capacitors that have been found to be suitable.

https://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/tesla-coils/drsstc-design-guide/good-mmc-capacitors/

You may also occasionally run across a used Maxwell energy discharge capacitor on E-Bay but these are rare and not all are suitable for Tesla coil duty. Whatever capacitors you obtain, this will be your most expensive component. Unfortunately there is no cheap shortcut.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 06:06:52 PM by MRMILSTAR »
Steve White
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Offline benet

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2022, 08:47:07 PM »
I got the 72 inches from the wattage of the wall plug and the equation L=1.7*sqrt(p). I figured that because the tesla coil mostly just changes the voltage to amperage ratio that the wattage would be the same from beginning to end. I do know that the initial voltage wouldn't be enough to make that long spark which is why I then tried to work backwards and calculate out the voltage that it would need to have, which is where I got the 54000 kv.

Offline alan sailer

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2022, 09:22:19 PM »
I would agree with the idea that finding a coil to copy is a good idea. When I build my coils using other peoples designs it was very encouraging to know that my poor initial  results were not due to poor design but rather my mistakes. When I corrected those mistakes I ended up with a good working coil.

Checking out other designs will also allow you to find out what the real world performance of a coil can be.

A 72 inch spark is an impressive result that takes a lot of careful engineering and fabrication to achieve.

Good luck.

Offline benet

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2022, 12:55:28 AM »
I've been looking for Tesla coil designs in the 2-kW input range but it's surprisingly hard to find just the design and not someone selling a prebuilt coil. Does anyone have any recommendations for designs that are good for starting out, where it is relatively simple so there are as few points of failure as possible. Thank you.

Offline alan sailer

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2022, 03:05:27 AM »
Loneoceans is an amazing source of information. Here is a link to a spark gap coil design that puts out three foot sparks.

https://www.loneoceans.com/labs/teslacoil2/

I have seen(at Burning Man) spark gap coils putting out six foot sparks. The designer used a HV utility transformer known by the
slang as a pole pig. Nasty beast, instant death.

The more popular neon sign transformers are designed to put out a (hopefully) non-lethal current of 30mA or less.
At 2kW assuming an output voltage of 12kV you are talking about 160mA of output current. 50mA is the generally
accepted lethal current.

If you go that direction you need to ask yourself "Do I feel lucky?":-) I am not saying that working with these currents
is absolutely deadly. But constant awareness is a requirement.

I believe for your 2kW goal finding a transformer will be the toughest job. I'd urge you to be more flexible in your requirements.
There is more than one way to get cool sparks. Especially your first cool sparks.

Cheers.


Offline MRMILSTAR

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Re: finale design help
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2022, 06:06:32 AM »
There are two aspects to your question. First, there is the design. Second, there is the construction.

For a 2 KVA SGTC you have several options. You would need about 6 NSTs (30 ma) or 3 NSTs (60 ma) in parallel to get that much power. Another option would be 2 MOTs in series although spark gap operation is trickier because of the low voltage. I'm not even going to suggest a pole transformer because these are far too dangerous for a beginner. What I am suggesting is that 2 KVA may be overly ambitious for your first SGTC. Do what you can with single NST for starters.

I highly suggest using JAVATC to design your own because even if you have a schematic from someone you may not be able to get the exact components such as capacitors, transformer(s), and secondary coil form size. A design is only half the battle. The other important aspect is the construction. There are many important construction techniques that must be followed for the SGTC to work properly and safely. A high-quality spark gap is one of the more difficult things to build. There's a lot more to it than just having 2 bolts close together.

I highly suggest looking at all the web sites that you can find. Look at construction techniques and pictures. Before I built my large pig-powered SGTC, which was my first SGTC, I studied numerous web sites and construction pictures. I also made extensive use of JAVATC to give me a workable design. I refined the design numerous times with JAVATC until it fit my requirements and the parts that I could get. I didn't start building anything until I had been studying and formulating my design for about 4 months.
Steve White
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Re: finale design help
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2022, 06:06:32 AM »

 


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