Author Topic: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?  (Read 4295 times)

Offline Jun

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« on: April 06, 2020, 02:10:18 PM »
Hi. I've taken apart plasma globe and noticed that there is only one high voltage output and and no grounding. Is it from corona discharge? but I don't think so because voltage is only few kv. Is is from capacitive coupling? but there is no proper grounding.

I've tried to run the globe with flyback and DIY ZVS driver, but it did not run. I even tried connecting the ground wire close but no plasma was established. My flyback runs around 25kHz at 15kV and plasma globe works similar frequency as well. What am I missing?

Offline davekni

  • Executive Board Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2744
  • Karma: +129/-1
  • Physicist, engineer (electronic), and hobbiest
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2020, 06:30:24 PM »
The ground return is through the line cord.  It takes very little capacitance to the line wires to return 1-2mA at 25kHz.

"Glow discharge" is the best way to describe the streamers inside a plasma globe.  They are typically filled with a mix of xenon and neon.  Here's a thread on my little DIY plasma globe, using argon, since I don't have neon and xenon around, in case it's of interest:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=924.msg6187#msg6187

Are you sure your flyback doesn't have diodes on the secondary winding?  Most flyback transformers were built for CRT monitors/TVs, so include internal diodes.  Their DC output won't work for a plasma globe.
David Knierim

Offline John123

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 238
  • Karma: +5/-0
  • All the gear, no idea. UK
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2020, 02:21:55 AM »
Yeah stray capacitive coupling is what's doing it, like a tesla coil secondary and top load capacitance to the surrounding environment. Pretty sure the little flyback inside my plasma globe was AC too. The DC flybacks will charge up that stray capacitance once and that will be that.

Is the flyback you're driving on the ZVS driver one from an actual plasma globe or from a CRT?

Offline Jun

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2020, 06:40:02 AM »
I just realised that my flyback has built-in rectifier inside.
But if it's completing the circuit by capacities coupling, then shouldn't the circuity have better grounding? Or just PCB trace enough for high frequency?

Offline John123

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 238
  • Karma: +5/-0
  • All the gear, no idea. UK
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2020, 07:05:30 AM »
The stray parasitic capacitances are enough, anything is a capacitor at high voltages!

Offline alan sailer

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Karma: +17/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2020, 04:30:26 PM »
Dave is right. DC will not work on a normal commercial globe.

If you look closely at the globe you will see that there is no electrical feed thru on the globe (unlike a neon tube). The globe works with AC because there is a small capacitance between the flyback lead and the gas inside the globe. It is small (pF's) but at the typical operating frequencies of the flyback (>10Khz) is enough to transmit the milliamps of current needed to create the plasma tendrils. Normally a globe has a black conductive coating inside the stem of the golbe. This is one plate of the capacitor.

The vast majority of flybacks you will find today are DC. AC flybacks began to disappear during the late 60s because the increasing voltage requirements of modern color TVs. The availability of cheaper solid state HV diodes  made it easier to integrate the rectifier diode(s) into the flyback.

Cheers.

Offline John123

  • High Voltage Engineer
  • ****
  • Posts: 238
  • Karma: +5/-0
  • All the gear, no idea. UK
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2020, 05:59:09 PM »
You could always try overvolting it with a resonant bridge driver, with enough reverse voltage the diodes have a habit of shorting.

Offline Jun

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2020, 12:29:40 PM »
Thanks John! That's a clever idea. I don't have any use for DC flyback so I might try that. I would also like to know if air ioniser has AC flyback or not.

Offline davekni

  • Executive Board Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 2744
  • Karma: +129/-1
  • Physicist, engineer (electronic), and hobbiest
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2020, 06:56:43 PM »
Frying diodes in DC flybacks is certainly possible.  It's sometimes difficult to get complete frying.  Diodes often "fry" partially - with reduced breakdown voltage, but not a complete short.  Reply 4 of this thread has my experience with flyback diode frying:
https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=958.msg6504#msg6504

All the air ionizers I've seen use DC.
David Knierim

Offline ElectroXa

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 35
  • Karma: +1/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2020, 07:37:01 PM »
I would also like to know if air ioniser has AC flyback or not.

Hi
like davekni said, air ionisers are using DC voltage, thus a DC flyback.
I've an other suggestion to find AC flybacks,  it's to look for ozone generators, as they have an AC flyback  :)

Offline MRMILSTAR

  • High Voltage Senior
  • *****
  • Posts: 535
  • Karma: +20/-0
  • Cedar Rapids, Iowa
    • View Profile
Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2020, 08:27:37 PM »
There are AC flybacks available on E-Bay if you look carefully. They usually don't say that they're AC. You have to look at their appearance. A lot of them are NOS but are so old that the insulation is cracking which can probably be prepared with wax. There are some brand new ones also. I bought 2 new AC flybacks a few months ago from E-Bay.
Steve White
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Retired electrical engineer

High Voltage Forum

Re: Where is plasma globe arc arcing to?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2020, 08:27:37 PM »

 


* Recent Topics and Posts

post Re: Big Coil Build Log
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
Today at 05:47:34 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
davekni
Today at 04:45:07 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
Today at 04:18:27 AM
post Push Pull VTTC
[Vacuum Tube Tesla Coils (VTTC)]
janno288
Today at 01:10:08 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 27, 2024, 10:54:52 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
March 27, 2024, 11:53:42 AM
post Re: OCD Triggering Early + Low Output
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 05:14:36 AM
post Re: Is the UD2.7C under voltage lock out basically worthless?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 04:47:48 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 27, 2024, 04:41:59 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 27, 2024, 12:04:34 AM
post Re: Super flat QCW simulation (does this look reasonable?)
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
toooldforthis
March 26, 2024, 11:08:14 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 11:07:20 PM
post Re: Is the UD2.7C under voltage lock out basically worthless?
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 10:46:29 PM
post OCD Triggering Early + Low Output
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 26, 2024, 09:03:43 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 26, 2024, 08:46:59 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 26, 2024, 05:02:18 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 26, 2024, 03:16:03 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
Anders Mikkelsen
March 26, 2024, 01:41:49 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 26, 2024, 04:48:22 AM
post Re: Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 26, 2024, 04:16:37 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:16:24 AM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:13:02 AM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 04:00:43 AM
post Re: Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
davekni
March 26, 2024, 03:19:18 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
thedoc298
March 26, 2024, 01:50:42 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 25, 2024, 08:05:02 PM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
March 25, 2024, 07:41:29 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 25, 2024, 06:45:46 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 25, 2024, 05:44:25 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
Anders Mikkelsen
March 25, 2024, 04:47:17 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
March 25, 2024, 04:27:22 PM
post Re-chargeable 1.5 volt lithium ion AAA batteries
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 25, 2024, 03:57:34 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
March 25, 2024, 02:06:41 PM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
KrisPringle
March 25, 2024, 04:43:25 AM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
davekni
March 25, 2024, 02:39:40 AM
post Re: Odd MOSFET Driver Behavior
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
KrisPringle
March 25, 2024, 12:47:09 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 24, 2024, 07:36:32 PM
post Re: My completed 14-stage Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 24, 2024, 07:27:24 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 24, 2024, 04:25:23 AM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 10:47:35 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 09:30:21 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 04:34:31 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 03:04:25 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 23, 2024, 01:38:34 PM
post Re: capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
MRMILSTAR
March 23, 2024, 04:20:03 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
davekni
March 23, 2024, 12:54:30 AM
post Re: Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
davekni
March 23, 2024, 12:05:57 AM
post capacitor and diodes. Voltage values for a CW
[Voltage Multipliers]
Alberto
March 22, 2024, 11:45:03 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
OmGigaTron
March 22, 2024, 11:30:09 PM
post Smoke Screen Machine Protect 950 XP - Teardown of a Smoke Cannon!
[Electronic Circuits]
Mads Barnkob
March 22, 2024, 10:20:35 PM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Benbmw
March 22, 2024, 09:21:13 PM
post Re: What actually kills MOSFETs?
[Beginners]
AstRii
March 22, 2024, 03:37:11 PM
post What actually kills MOSFETs?
[Beginners]
FPS
March 22, 2024, 05:09:20 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 22, 2024, 03:57:54 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 22, 2024, 02:59:25 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 21, 2024, 06:31:42 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
rikkitikkitavi
March 21, 2024, 03:08:01 PM
post Re: [WTS] IGBT, Ferrite, Capacitors, Tools, PSU, Industrial components and parts
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
Mads Barnkob
March 21, 2024, 01:37:32 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Alberto
March 21, 2024, 11:42:07 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 21, 2024, 04:09:14 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 21, 2024, 02:15:31 AM
post My Homemade Structural Analysis X-Ray Machine
[X-ray]
Luca c.
March 21, 2024, 01:35:40 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 20, 2024, 10:40:00 PM
post Re: Difference between these transformers
[Transformer (Ferrite Core)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 08:03:41 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 07:51:57 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 20, 2024, 10:39:47 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
March 20, 2024, 04:09:59 AM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 20, 2024, 01:13:23 AM
post Re: Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 20, 2024, 12:45:16 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 20, 2024, 12:30:30 AM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 11:12:24 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:47:49 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 19, 2024, 09:44:19 PM
post Phase Lead Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
March 19, 2024, 06:52:09 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 19, 2024, 05:02:44 PM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 05:01:41 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 04:31:02 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
March 19, 2024, 03:59:54 PM
post Re: Benjamin's DRSSTC 2 in progress
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
March 19, 2024, 06:41:39 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
davekni
March 19, 2024, 04:05:49 AM
post Re: Welcome new members, come say hello and tell a little about yourself :)
[General Chat]
OmGigaTron
March 18, 2024, 09:08:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 09:07:35 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 08:57:06 PM
post Re: Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
March 18, 2024, 03:51:33 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:59:46 PM
post Re: 160mm DRSSTC II project | Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Late
March 18, 2024, 02:33:25 PM
post Can I Trust This Super Cheap Site?
[General Chat]
2020-Man
March 18, 2024, 11:02:12 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Twospoons
March 18, 2024, 02:36:11 AM
post Re: Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
Mads Barnkob
March 17, 2024, 07:42:55 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:15:14 PM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 05:05:04 AM
post Re: Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
March 17, 2024, 04:50:51 AM
post Re: 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Twospoons
March 17, 2024, 04:45:17 AM
post 2x Panasonic Inverter Microwaves - what to salvage, dangers?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
March 17, 2024, 04:17:51 AM
post Where's all this voltage coming from?
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Terry
March 17, 2024, 01:29:32 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
March 17, 2024, 12:33:06 AM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Keybored
March 16, 2024, 08:46:20 PM
post Re: Bleeder resistor for MMC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:39:24 PM
post Re: DRSSTC Questions
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Hydron
March 16, 2024, 08:21:44 PM
post Best forum for vacuum tube amplifiers?
[General Chat]
yourboi
March 16, 2024, 08:20:13 PM

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal