Author Topic: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)  (Read 408 times)

Offline alan sailer

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Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« on: November 07, 2021, 01:27:49 AM »
So I finally got back to messing with my micro tesla after a long delay. The garage has cooled down and it's actually pleasant to work in there.

I was seeing something that I don't understand and am curious to the reason. My tuning is being done at a low pulse width and low rep rate (BPS).
About 50usec and 30Hz. I was getting 7 to 8 inch sparks to ground at about 150 volts and 350 amps. The OCD is cutting in at this point. It's just a
reference point to let me know when I am in the ballpark of being tuned.

So I decided since the output had peaked to run up the BPS. This is when I stop understanding. At higher BPS the output goes up and the OCD
stops being triggered. And the spark gets longer, to about 17 inches and things are looking spicy. Like a DRSSTC should look, kind of angry.

So why does increasing BPS make the OCD stop triggering? And why does the spark get longer?

I have no theory for the first observation.

The longer spark could be the QCW effect, each burst creates an ionization channel that allows the next spark to get a head start and travel further.

Cheers.

Offline AstRii

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2021, 01:32:19 AM »
Isn't your interrupter duty-cycle limited? If so, then at higher BPS you can reach duty cycle limit and on-times get shorter to compensate the BPS and of course shorter pulse width the primary current does not ring up that high.

Or maybe at higher BPS since the sparks are longer, they lower the Q factor of primary tank circuit more and then the current will not reach that high.

each burst creates an ionization channel that allows the next spark to get a head start and travel further.

That's exactly right. The quicker you send those streamers to free air, to shorter is the time between them. If the time between the sparks isn't long enough, the air can stay hotter and more ionized.

« Last Edit: November 07, 2021, 01:33:52 AM by AstRii »
Marek Novotny
Czech Republic, Czech Technical University in Prague
www.uhvlab.org

Offline alan sailer

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2021, 02:06:56 AM »
AstRii,

Thanks for the information. I have not paid undivided attention to the scope trace as I ramp up the BPS. I always split my attention between the coil
and the scope, watching for flash-over or racing sparks. I'll have to look for duty cycle/pulse width trade-offs.

I am using a software interrupter with the SimpleTesla UD. I have not examined the characteristics of the code and will have to look into it to see what it does.
I've been taking the easy way out and assumed that the guy who wrote it knew what he was doing. The hardware is well thought out and works fine so....

Cheers.

Offline alan sailer

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2021, 09:09:00 PM »
So I have been doing more tuning and testing and I just want to note some things that I have seen that I have no read on the forums.
Maybe because everybody already know this but me...

First, the OCD trips at lower power are not always a stop point. I am cautious about coil operation and have always seen OCD trip as
an alarm to stop and try something else. In both DRSTTC I have built I have fought with trying to lower the primary coil current and
never succeeded. However I am beginning to believe that sometimes (when you are properly tuned) the OCD light will go away at
higher pulse width/PRF or buss voltage.

It's kind of like a threshold that you need to get over and then the spark gets long and the unit settles down to high output and lower
primary currents. Earlier I was fighting with primary current hitting 375 amps and still getting OCD. Now I am getting good sparks at
300 amps once I pass the "threshold"

Another number I have always wanted to know is the coil sensitivity to primary tuning. At this point I am finding quarter turn tuning is
too coarse. Playing around with more like 1/8 turn sensitivity is more realistic. I also suspect that tuning is a subjective goal. If you want
maximum spark then more radical primary de-tuning is good, at the expense of higher initial primary currents (and stresses).

In any case I am happy with the set-up at this point. I am getting occasional strikes at about 21 inches, current of 300 amps and running at
150 volts. For a parallel TO247 full bridge this should be pretty conservative. Now it's time to make it pretty.

Cheers.

Offline davekni

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2021, 10:27:52 PM »
Quote
So I have been doing more tuning and testing and I just want to note some things that I have seen that I have no read on the forums.
Maybe because everybody already know this but me...
This definitely matches my experience.  Built my DRSSTC just before finding this forum.  It all makes logical sense now.  Would have been convenient to understand prior.

Quote
First, the OCD trips at lower power are not always a stop point. I am cautious about coil operation and have always seen OCD trip as an alarm to stop and try something else.
Me too.  Especially at the start, I've been very cautious, not wanting to rebuild my 40-IGBT bridge.

Quote
It's kind of like a threshold that you need to get over and then the spark gets long and the unit settles down to high output and lower primary currents. Earlier I was fighting with primary current hitting 375 amps and still getting OCD. Now I am getting good sparks at 300 amps once I pass the "threshold"
I see the same thing, more so with more detuning.  That's why I've been recommending first-time DRSSTC builders to start with little detuning.  Increase detuning after initial success.

Quote
Another number I have always wanted to know is the coil sensitivity to primary tuning. At this point I am finding quarter turn tuning is too coarse. Playing around with more like 1/8 turn sensitivity is more realistic.
I also suspect that tuning is a subjective goal. If you want maximum spark then more radical primary de-tuning is good, at the expense of higher initial primary currents (and stresses).
Tuning sensitivity depends some on OCD margin.  If the bridge is over-built for the primary impedance (high OCD threshold), tuning is less sensitive.  I tune by adding or removing MMC banks in relatively coarse steps.
Tuning definitely depends on goals.  Maximum spark length requires more detuning and frequent enable pulses to build arc length even while all the early pulses end in OCD tripping.  Music works much better with less detuning so that even short enable pulses produce sparks.

Quote
In any case I am happy with the set-up at this point. I am getting occasional strikes at about 21 inches, current of 300 amps and running at 150 volts. For a parallel TO247 full bridge this should be pretty conservative. Now it's time to make it pretty.
Does sound like a robust coil!  Have fun making it pretty.  That's the part I never get to.  Too many other tempting experiments to try instead.
David Knierim

Offline alan sailer

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2021, 05:12:25 AM »
David,

Thanks for verifying some observations. It's a good sanity check.

And yes when I read about your 40 device bridge it gave me an internal shudder. Just the thought of un-soldering all those leads...

One experiment I've been thinking about trying is tuning a coil using a variable length breakout. It seems like it would be fairly
easy to do and would avoid making a low resistance movable contact for the primary.

Anybody else tried this to your knowledge?

Cheers.

Offline davekni

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2021, 06:39:04 AM »
Quote
One experiment I've been thinking about trying is tuning a coil using a variable length breakout. It seems like it would be fairly
easy to do and would avoid making a low resistance movable contact for the primary.

Anybody else tried this to your knowledge?
That is an interesting idea.  I have definitely noticed the breakout size affecting tuning.  It should work well.  In my case, I was changing breakout size to see what worked best for maximum arc length.  I was adjusting MMC to compensate for breakout size.  (At least for my DRSSTC, longest arcs came from shortest breakout.)  For longest-arc experiments, I was adjusting MMC in fairly-small increments, trying to maximize detuning while still getting arcs to start.
David Knierim

Offline Uspring

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2021, 06:26:48 PM »
Quote
It's kind of like a threshold that you need to get over and then the spark gets long and the unit settles down to high output and lower
primary currents.

That is due to the primary/secondary detuning and also the breakout threshold. The secondary will only draw power from the primary, when it is reasonably in tune, but that will only happen, when the arc adds capacitance to the secondary tank. So the arc needs to be there, before it draws power. That's a sort of hen/egg problem. But once the egg is laid you will have a self enforcing effect and the primary current will decrease as the secondary draws power from the primary tank.
Therefore you'll often see a bump in the primary current.

Quote
One experiment I've been thinking about trying is tuning a coil using a variable length breakout. It seems like it would be fairly
easy to do and would avoid making a low resistance movable contact for the primary.

The last  2 paragraphs of this post https://highvoltageforum.net/index.php?topic=670.msg5815#msg5815 deal a bit with this. The breakout voltage is lower for long rods, which will cause an earlier arc loading. That decreases the height of the primary current bump. That is also the case for higher burst rates due to the heat left over from the previous burst as you have observed.

Offline alan sailer

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2021, 05:35:25 PM »
Uspring,

What you write is making sense. I am understanding on a very simple level that the energy sloshing around in the primary
can only escape to the secondary when it is in proper tune. Which only happens when the arc starts. The chicken/egg analogy
 is a good one.

As far as the breakout I wonder if a good electromagnetic simulation program could model the field well enough to give some insights.
I know loneoceans used modeling to design his smaller QCW.

Cheers,

Offline Uspring

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Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2021, 06:00:32 PM »
Yes, modelling the field is possible. Interpreting the results in terms of breakout threshold voltage, primary currents and arc length is a different story, though. I've tuned my coils just the same way David suggests, i.e. detune just so much to avoid the OCD triggering. A longer rod will allow a bit more detuning, but that might not increase arc length.

High Voltage Forum

Re: Yet Another Tuning Question (YATQ)
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2021, 06:00:32 PM »

 


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