Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build

[OmGigaTron]

Greetings everyone,

Today I am building out my first post describing my work building a Plasma Torid experiment.

I will break this initial post up into a few sections, as I am hoping to use this as a repository of information, discussion, design ideas, and eventually a fully updated build log.



Picture courtesy of Zerg Labs
(Not my actual project)


// 1-2 L Borosilicate Glass Globe filled with Xenon //

A 2-liter, borosilicate glass globe, evacuated and filled with Xenon.
In the US you can find these by Wayne Strattman
https://strattman.com/
They are not listed on his official designs, but you can check his price sheets, or call him directly to ask how many he has in stock.
He only had a single 1L globe, and a few of the 2 L globes left last time I spoke with him, and lead times are 3-6 months.

EU/Russia you can contact
Zerg Labs

has quite a few options available, including pre-built with power supplies, and custom shapes and sizes.
https://teslacoil.pro/en
http://www.катушка-тесла.рф/
I do not know how the pricing, quality, or other aspects compare.
I am just trying to share other vendor options, as I know several of you are on that side of the Pale Blue Dot.

// CIRCUIT DESIGN  //

Circuit Design
This is the section that I will need the most help with, and the entire reason I am here.
Most everyone here is much smarter than I am in this, so if I do not use the correct terminology, or sound completely bonkers, just let me know.
I am here to learn, grow, and build this as a collaborative project with the community.

The initial design credit goes to Steve Ward, as his tremendous work in this field cannot be cited enough.
Class E Self Resonant Oscilitaing power amplifier

Standard Class E Self-Oscillating power circuit:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-jMPQOSs6-Flp181TTa8cNMSs2XumzDEahg9DVD0hKk/edit?pli=1

Sky Guided - Version .02 Circut





// Links //

The last section in this first post is a series of references to people who have created one of these builds.
This is not all-inclusive, and I know that I have missed some designs.
These are simply designs that I have found interesting and may aid in the overall development of the build and design.

BackMacSci
This was the initial design that I found.
He is younger and his circuit is one of the simplest in terms of design, but it works.
He is actively working on learning Plasma Theory and has recently also built a plasma spiral tube.
Leave it to the younger generation to inspire an old fart like myself to build new things.
https://www.youtube.com/@BackMacSci

Zerg Labs
These guys have a massive amount of work done on this topic
I am probably not giving enough credit, to them, so please check this out.
Especially for those of you on that side of the world.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRKfNzc7-524yD8nlyZC5Zg

Integza
He has built one of these, but seems as if he is trying to market and sell them now as pre-built.
Looks like he is partnering with Zerg Labs as well for his build.
https://www.youtube.com/@integza

Sky Guided
This is one of the newest designs, and she is actively working on building this.
She goes into quite a bit of detail regarding the circuit design and working theory.
This is worth checking out.
https://hackaday.io/project/194683-plasma-toroid-sky-guided-pcb-edition
This is the most detailed, current, and up-to-date work on this project by anyone thus far.
If you are going to explore only a single link in this post, this is the one to read.
I learned quite a bit about the design and theory of the operation of this design from her explanations.
I should almost call this required reading.

Huxman
Only a single video here, but one of the best explanations of the circuit theory.
I would love to reverse-engineer this design and incorporate her upgrades into my circuit.
I have attempted to discern the circuit schematics, but I am having trouble with this one.
I hope there is more progress with this design.

// Further Research and optimization. //

After doing loads of reading on the circuit itself, I have found several papers where the Class E oscillator design has been iterated upon.
A few of these papers go into great detail about how to mitigate the sensitivity of components used, and how to select components to increase the efficiency.
I found several other papers as well, but they were locked behind a paywall, or in paid scientific journals.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326616551_A_Self-Tuned_Class-E_Power_Oscillator

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322072074_A_Class_E_Power_Oscillator_for_678-MHz_Wireless_Power_Transfer_System

https://people.physics.anu.edu.au/~dxt103/160m/class_E_amplifier_design.pdf


// Theory //

(Warning, I may be wildly incorrect and these are simple observations based on what I have seen.
I have no supporting measurements to back any of this up.)

From what I have observed, this device works quite a bit similar to the functional relationship of the Primary and Secondary coils in Tesla coil circuits.
The exception is, that the Secondary in this case is the Glass Globe and Xenon.
With this being said, the plasma itself appears to be an inductive load, which is not a fixed figure, but its Impedance, resistance, and voltage drop can change drastically, depending on the state of the plasma.
From my work in Audio Amplifier design, this 'Load' is akin to a physical speaker to me.
It receives the driving current, it performs an action (which takes TIME) and then it changes state drastically, altering the load state.
In most Solid State designs, I have seen loads described as a single linear calculation, but in this case, we must learn as much as we can about the load we are driving, in order to properly drive it.

Some of my plans are to add things like an optical sensor, and heat sensor/thermistor, and to measure the circuit before and after the load stage, to get a better understanding of what is actually happening within the plasma.
Other things I would like to do, much later, would be to optimize the Load Time, to ensure that the circuit operates as cool and efficiently as possible.
I would then like to experiment with different waveforms, which will affect load time, as well as frequency tuning, and optimization.
At that point I am hoping to achieve a little better overall 'control' of the feedback loop of the plasma, to enable us to control/contour its size/shape/intensity, etc.


// Further Experimentation //

The reason I called this a Dual / Stereo Class E Oscillator, is that I plan on building the physical circuit twice, duplicated/mirrored.
Then I would like to build a second, secondary coil on the opposite side of the glass globe, and use the inverse of the signal from side A to Side B.
I would call this 'Stereo' in amplifier design, but no idea what the actual term for this is in circuit design.


// Closing //


I hope this has been a good read for all of you, and thank you for taking the time to read through my ideas today.
If you have anything to add, contribute, or correct, please feel free to let me know.


"Be Excellent to Each Other"
Max
Omgigatron

[OmGigaTron]

[Reserved for Build Thread]

Currently, I have received my Glass Globe.
I will also be using 1/4" / 6.35 MM OD Copper tube for my secondary.

At this point, the actual circuit I want to use is still in the design phases, but I would like to start building it soon.

So far I am simply in the design phases.


Here is a link to my ugly, work in progress, parts list at DigiKey
There are duplicates and some other parts that may or may not even work.
If anyone has any experience with any of these or would recommend something different, please let me know.

https://www.digikey.com/en/mylists/list/A3DDJ8DGUT

[OmGigaTron]

[Reserved for project write up once completed]

[Mads Barnkob]

Very thorough approach to your project and kudos for sharing everything The build up with references is as much documentation as tribute is heartwarming.

If HVF had a award for Most Well-structured Thread, this is looking like a winner!

Looking forward to follow your project.

[OmGigaTron]

Very thorough approach to your project and kudos for sharing everything The build up with references is as much documentation as tribute is heartwarming.

If HVF had a award for Most Well-structured Thread, this is looking like a winner!

Looking forward to follow your project.

Thanks for the kind words.
I figure if I am going to colaborate with others, its best to share as much info as possible.
That and I still prefer the old ways of the internet with classic forums, bbs, and the like.

I guess I better pick through my parts list, and share it with everyone to get some discussion going.

[Michelle_]

I haven’t had a chance to read all the links but I’m wondering

1. How important is the size of the globe? Will a 2” diameter one work? 1”?

2. What effect does the type of gas have, for example, can you use neon? What about the pressure of the gas?

3. Does it have to be a sphere? (Probably?)

[OmGigaTron]

I haven’t had a chance to read all the links but I’m wondering

1. How important is the size of the globe? Will a 2” diameter one work? 1”?

2. What effect does the type of gas have, for example, can you use neon? What about the pressure of the gas?

3. Does it have to be a sphere? (Probably?)

In this case, the size/shape of the globe is not directly important.
I only chose it because that is what is available, and it works for what I am building.

Wayne Strattman, whom I purchased the globe from, has a magnitude of designs, ranging from simple shapes to full-on glass sculptures.

The other reason I chose a globe, is because I intend to study the EM fields that are creating this effect, and this lets me better visualize the fields themselves.

The way this works is quite similar (but different) to standard Neon lighting and Plasma generation techniques that have been around for the past hundred years.
Neon Sign art, Florescent lighting, and that entire industry are cousins to this idea.

As for the gas inside, you could use any reactive gas such as Neon.
I chose Xenon since out of the noble gases, it has the LOWEST ionization voltage required, so I don't have to build a 50KV coil just to see results.

The pressure inside the vessel does have a direct correlation to the ease of the gasses' ability to ionize, as well as an effect of the color of the plasma produced.
This is how many Neon Sign artists can achieve different and beautiful colors.

Aside from that, I SPECULATE that a better vacuum and lower density may produce a better output with lower resistance.
I do not have much info from the Chemistry side of this equation, and I am always trying to learn more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neon_lighting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geissler_tube

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionization_energy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_confinement_fusion

(I am just casually working with EM Confinement Fusion, for fun)

[Michelle_]

Thanks for the reply

I have 1”x2” tubes with argon, helium, and neon, as well as a 3” diameter globe with neon. I was wondering if I could make a toroid (or something even plasma filaments) in them but I figured it would be a reach goal that I might never be able to do. I will watch this thread closely for ideas, I’d really like to try it.

[OmGigaTron]

Here is a Question regarding the copper former secondary coil.
For all of you with a multitude of Tesla Coil experiences.

I am planning on using US Standard 1/4 inch / .625 MM OD (Outer diameter) copper wire.
This is normally intended for use in connecting water to appliances etc.

It looks like TWO coils would be a good place to start, as most of the designs utilize that many.
According to the video by Huxman having the Pair, pushes the voltage toward one side, and the EM field to the other.
In theory - This is similar to the SKIN effect that I have seen on this type of copper tubing.

So, questions regarding construction, connection, length, and measurements.

Should I make two single rings, and connect them using a wire?
Or should I make a continuous loop, like Figure 8 or Oroboros, and have them cross somewhere?

When everyone here constructs a coil secondary to their tesla coils,
How do you Mechanically, and Electrically connect the coil to the circuit?
I have seen many different methods, some as simple as regular connection wire, and some such as that flat braided wire.

When measuring Inductance, How would a physical connection to the coil come into play?

What are some good spacing distances to keep the coils from each other?
I can recall reading through several different people's coil projects, that the coil spacing can play a key difference in terms of efficiency.

I am currently in the process of designing and 3D printing a few basic pieces to hold the globe in place, and I may use this as a standoff or mounting bracket for the coils.
What types of materials work best as a standoff, to isolate these coils from the enclosure/circuit/ground?
I have the ability to 3d Print Carbon fiber-reinforced Nylon.
-I read somewhere that this may be a bad idea because the CF is conductive.

If you guys can point me to links, or to threads or posts here, where you have had a good coil discussion, that would be quite helpful.
Thanks,
Max

[OmGigaTron]

Thanks for the reply

I have 1”x2” tubes with argon, helium, and neon, as well as a 3” diameter globe with neon. I was wondering if I could make a toroid (or something even plasma filaments) in them but I figured it would be a reach goal that I might never be able to do. I will watch this thread closely for ideas, I’d really like to try it.

All of those would be great candidates for this type of project.
The Neon Globe would be the closest thing in terms of physical shape and size, so once we iron out the circuit. With a few more starting volts, you could easily replicate this.

Initially several of the people who RE-DISCOVERED this in the mid-2020s, found it by accident.
Simply by placing one of those types of gass-filled vessels near a High Voltage, High-Frequency EM field.
Such as a Tesla Coil.

The Circuit I am building is simply a wildly optimized, specialized circuit to do exactly this.
But, you could use something as simple as a Spark Gap generator, a Tesla coil, or even a simple fluorescent light ballast from the hardware store.
Place it near your glass vessel, and it should show plasma.

*Theory
At this point, I am still learning about the plasma stages, and from what I can tell, there are actually 3 stages.

The FIRST step is to simply ignite the plasma, and that usually takes a single spark/em fluctuation, of a high magnatidue.

This circuit I am working on is to mold, shape, and contain the reaction in a stable state.

The third stage, which is way theoretical, is when scientists are able to 'laser pulse' / 'plasma pulse' by taking one laser emitter and using it to amplify another.
That is way beyond the stages of this design. (Until I go full mad scientist. Mwahahahah)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall-effect_thruster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_laser


If you watch this video, they go into depth about the thoughts of WHY this is happening, but again, most of these are THEORY at this point.

And for those of you that need a break from the boring monotony, and want a little humor.
*Warning, This guy is a trained professional, and knows about High Voltages the danger involved, and has over a decade of history safely shocking himself.
This also goes into the theory of why our plasma toroid does what it does.

[Michelle_]

Interesting, I'm aware of making the tubes illuminate near a tesla coil which is something I intended to do. Actually making the toroid on the other hand... Good to know what I have might be useful. Tubes like this can be expensive and hard to find but I got lucky and found some interesting older pieces from someone in Ukraine.

I'm also interested in BackMacSci's filament tube which I assume uses basically the same technology.

I love electroboom, he's a genius. Integza is also very clever but if I'm understanding correctly he purchased one of the Russian toroids and didn't make it himself (?). He also nearly died making one of his last videos and is generally quite unsafe so I worry for him.

[OmGigaTron]

Interesting, I'm aware of making the tubes illuminate near a tesla coil which is something I intended to do. Actually making the toroid on the other hand... Good to know what I have might be useful. Tubes like this can be expensive and hard to find but I got lucky and found some interesting older pieces from someone in Ukraine.

That is quite lucky that you were able to purchase these tubes.
That for me was the biggest hurdle to get into this project.

I love electroboom, he's a genius. Integza is also very clever but if I'm understanding correctly he purchased one of the Russian toroids and didn't make it himself (?). He also nearly died making one of his last videos and is generally quite unsafe so I worry for him.

I have watched ElectroBoom for years, and my better half, used to show his videos in her I.T. Hardware maintenance classes.

Integza is also very clever but if I'm understanding correctly he purchased one of the Russian toroids and didn't make it himself (?). He also nearly died making one of his last videos and is generally quite unsafe so I worry for him.

I believe Integza built the one he has, he just purchased the globes from the Russian guys, (Tesla Coil Pro / Zerg Labs) Apparently, in the EU, Russia, and that part of the world, they are much easier to source.
I know that Mads and several other users on this forum are from that side of the globe, so I wanted to include the known sources for people not in the US like me.

From what I can tell, you are correct in regards to this, as most of this technology has massive overlapping parts.
This is why I am here hoping that the guys who are experts with High Voltage and Tesla Coils chime in.

[Michelle_]

Check this picture out, it doesn't look like there's all that much going on here.

https://teslacoil.pro/en/tproduct/148057938-613910514531-bublikolba-1-litr (if you enlarge the second picture it shows the exposed PCB)

I think with the information available you can definitely get there. Getting a working simulation going would probably be helpful. I'd like to look more into this but I'm trying to build an induction coil gun which is proving to be quite a challenge since I'm a HUGE NOOB!

I'm rooting for you and will be following your progress.

[OmGigaTron]

Check this picture out, it doesn't look like there's all that much going on here.

https://teslacoil.pro/en/tproduct/148057938-613910514531-bublikolba-1-litr (if you enlarge the second picture it shows the exposed PCB)

I think with the information available you can definitely get there. Getting a working simulation going would probably be helpful. I'd like to look more into this but I'm trying to build an induction coil gun which is proving to be quite a challenge since I'm a HUGE NOOB!

I'm rooting for you and will be following your progress.

I have a few designs that I have found others to build.
I might as well fire up the simulation software and get them built out.
Once I get a few values figured out, I can optimize the circuit, and finally start to build it.

[Michelle_]

Check this picture out, it doesn't look like there's all that much going on here.

https://teslacoil.pro/en/tproduct/148057938-613910514531-bublikolba-1-litr (if you enlarge the second picture it shows the exposed PCB)

I think with the information available you can definitely get there. Getting a working simulation going would probably be helpful. I'd like to look more into this but I'm trying to build an induction coil gun which is proving to be quite a challenge since I'm a HUGE NOOB!

I'm rooting for you and will be following your progress.

I have a few designs that I have found others to build.
I might as well fire up the simulation software and get them built out.
Once I get a few values figured out, I can optimize the circuit, and finally start to build it.

Great, you've inspired me to build one of these! I wasn't kidding when I said it's been on my mind. If you want any help with CAD designs or mechanical engineering I can contribute, I can also give you ready to print STL files, etc...

[alan sailer]

I watched a video about plasma toroids yesterday and saw that they were starting the toroid by using a static charge ie a plastic rod rubbed with fur. I decided to set-up my toroid and see if this works.

/>
Turns out it works quite well. I mentioned this in the YouTube video but I will repeat it here. This globe was filled by me a few years ago. It has 50 torr of xenon and works well. So higher pressures than the canonical 15 torr will work. Also I have reason to believe that baking the globe befoer filling is important. This globe was baked under vacuum for 12 hours at ~450C.

The operating power supply was initially set at 28 volts and was running at 3amps.

Cheers.

[alan sailer]

In answer to an earlier question about small toroids here is a partial answer.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HPjFJJj8Aag

Another answer about a neon toroid.

/>
Cheers.

[OmGigaTron]

I watched a video about plasma toroids yesterday and saw that they were starting the toroid by using a static charge ie a plastic rod rubbed with fur. I decided to set-up my toroid and see if this works.

Turns out it works quite well. I mentioned this in the YouTube video but I will repeat it here. This globe was filled by me a few years ago. It has 50 torr of xenon and works well. So higher pressures than the canonical 15 torr will work. Also I have reason to believe that baking the globe befoer filling is important. This globe was baked under vacuum for 12 hours at ~450C.

The operating power supply was initially set at 28 volts and was running at 3amps.

Cheers.

This is a great-looking setup.
I noticed that you are getting residual Plasma / Sparks when your toroid is moving, I wonder if that is an additional effect of the extra Xenon in the globe.

The way you start this globe is wild. I will have to read more on that as well.
It seems kind of like the guys who use Tesla guns and a mixture of what BackMacSci is doing, with the Triboelectric Effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect

[alan sailer]

I like the wand for it's emotional effect. It's exactly like doing a magic trick...

I have read about other toroid builders starting the globe by rotating the globe, creating a small static charge.
I have been unable to do this.

I also want to note that the power I am putting into this higher pressure globe is much higher than other builders.
Typically I see other use about 40 watts DC input. This one is closer to 90 watts. Gets hot quickly. I don't know if
it will hurt the globe over the long run...

Cheers.

[OmGigaTron]

So, I might as well post some progress.

I completed 3d Printing an enclosure, and a stand for my globe.
Of course, I overbuilt it.
It is roughly 200 MM x 200 MM x 100 MM
With approx 10 MM walls.
I know, it's a literal boring cube, but I am not great with Fusion 360, so I built it to what I can do.

I also included a hole in the top, and built a set of rings, that get larger, to work as a base for the globe.
At least this way, it can sit on something, and look really nice.

(Pictures)











I know these pictures are huge, I am going to see if I can scale them down a little.