Author Topic: QCW questions  (Read 12332 times)

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2022, 08:12:30 AM »
Thanks David

it has been a fun long journey .

anyways my current topload is 4" minorDia x 12.5" majorDia.

I would like to make this look smaller. I have been running numbers on topload capacitance calculator.

4" × 12.5" = 13.851pF
vs
2.26" × 6.27" = 6.9899pF , 2 stacked = 14pF

would they 'be the same' ?

meanwhile ill go check javatc

edit: short answer = NOT
« Last Edit: October 20, 2022, 08:23:56 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2022, 07:25:54 PM »
Quote
would they 'be the same' ?

meanwhile ill go check javatc
When paralleling capacitors in electronic circuits, capacitances do add.  Electric fields are primarily between capacitor plates contained within each part.  When electric fields overlap as in the two toploads, capacitances no longer add.

Quote
anyways my current topload is 4" minorDia x 12.5" majorDia.

I would like to make this look smaller. I have been running numbers on topload capacitance calculator.
This might start another long journey.   As you've found, smaller topload has smaller capacitance.  Either frequency increases or secondary coil needs more turns.  Larger toploads can also help direct the initial arc away from the topload.  Finally, smaller topload capacitance means frequency will change more as arc length grows.  (Arc capacitance is a higher fraction of total capacitance.)  Might require higher coupling and/or other changes to handle that increased frequency range.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2022, 02:50:49 AM »
http://amasci.com/tesla/toroid1.txt 

Quote
 
Do not worry about a perfect and solid connection between all
sections of a homemade toroid. Overlapping foil with an adhesive
layer between may show a poor or non-existent connection when
measured with the VOM, but in practice the skin effect makes
this a moot point. The toriod will be function perfectly even
if all sections are not perfectly electrically bonded. 

just about to finish when I read this.

indeed there is no electrical connection between *almost all* parts of the toroid.  i have calculated this to be almost *the same* topload capacitance to the single 4×12 one.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2022, 02:54:40 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2022, 06:00:54 AM »
Quote
Do not worry about a perfect and solid connection between all
sections of a homemade toroid. Overlapping foil with an adhesive
layer between may show a poor or non-existent connection when
measured with the VOM, but in practice the skin effect makes
this a moot point. The toriod will be function perfectly even
if all sections are not perfectly electrically bonded.
Conclusion is generally accurate presuming sufficient overlap.  However, it is not skin effect causing this.  Rather it is capacitance between the overlapping sections.  As long as capacitance between sections is high compared to total top-load capacitance, voltage drop between sections will be small.  If capacitance isn't high enough, arcing between sections will still limit voltage drop, though with less stability and predictability.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2022, 06:42:01 AM »
I had an aluminum tape toroid before. I had a feeling it was underperforming. forgot to measure electrical conductivity as well. it doesnt. breakout point had no electrical connection to topload. same goes to this build. not unless I poke the taped area with wire connection from breakout.

I just tested it last night, but could not reach ×10 length. only x8 or so. tuning is not so far from my previous single topload.

maybe (?) alu taped covered toroid is too lossy
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2022, 07:33:07 PM »
Quote
breakout point had no electrical connection to topload. same goes to this build. not unless I poke the taped area with wire connection from breakout.
If you have a meter that can measure capacitance, check capacitance from breakout to topload.  Depending on how breakout point is mounted, it may not have enough surface area against aluminum to have sufficient capacitance.

Quote
maybe (?) alu taped covered toroid is too lossy
If aluminum is all electrically connected there would be no loss issue.  With sufficient overlay, I'd think it would be fine too.  For better contact, try folding over a tiny bit (1-2mm) of tape at the ends and perhaps along edges too.  Those folded over edges will contact directly to aluminum underneath, avoiding non-conductive adhesive.  Not guaranteed given aluminum's natural oxide layer.  Enough contact points mean statistically some will conduct.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2022, 06:36:01 PM »
Quote
If you have a meter that can measure capacitance, check capacitance from breakout to topload.  Depending on how breakout point is mounted, it may not have enough surface area against aluminum to have sufficient capacitance.

sorry for late response. here it is . my second SEC 4"x 6" . testing .its about 12.6~20pF . red lead is where the breakout point connects. its directly connects to sec winding hv end

another angle, where the secondary wire ends. metal tab and bolt/nut going to other side


NOT currently using it. tested/quicky tuned a few time only, bad performance.. still using my smaller one


btw, here is what Im busy at. this circuit mod will be at the user side. my current controller outputs +5 INTERRUPT & RAMP PWM over RCA sheilded wires. one for UD, and other for buck, w/c also holds the RC ramp filter at input. with audio mod, RAMP PWM path will be replaced with analog line(going buck) 0-5V analog ramp . I would prefer something robust of a low impedance output unity buffer. input doesnt need to be high impedance(but is a plus).
->> will good ol 741 do its job?
->> TL071?
->> or maybe something discrete? Emitter follower?

single supply would be simpler (+7v)

 output goes over 2 meters of RCA sheilded cable. should I worry of plasma spewing around? I felt safer with PWM signal/s on shielded cables

I saw this video on yt(audio capable qcw controller). and this gave me an idea. so I tested it in sim.. it works,  :P testing with 1KHz ""tone"". hope it sound good in real world




cheers
-Ralph
SGTC / SSTC / DR-SSTC / QCW

Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2022, 04:25:31 AM »
Quote
testing .its about 12.6~20pF
I'd guess that is low enough to cause arcing and resulting instability.  With breakout point wired directly to secondary top, all top-load current (not including breakout current) passes through that capacitance.  It is on the same order as top-load capacitance, making a ~2:1 capacitive voltage divider.  Half output voltage will certainly arc across a tiny gap between foil pieces.

Quote
->> will good ol 741 do its job?
->> TL071?
->> or maybe something discrete? Emitter follower?
Probably any of above will work.  Recommend a resistor between buffer and cable, in the 10 to 100 ohm range.  Buffer circuits tend to be unstable with capacitive loads such as cables, both opamps and emitter followers.  Also helps with any stray RF picked up by the cable, limiting RF current feed back to buffer output.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2022, 11:23:08 AM »
David

 all noted! thank you.

meanwhile im almost finish with the qcw ramp gen. still lack the output buffer part.

 
 [/url]


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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #129 on: November 04, 2022, 04:58:12 AM »
hello again

 what do you guys use for sequencing tones?
tempo control? interrupt(pulse) output as well?

better if standalone. just need two outputs. the note and int signals

sorry but no idea how this is done

thanks
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2022, 12:02:52 PM »
and it actually works!  wow  ;D

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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2022, 03:07:48 AM »
Quote
and it actually works!  wow  ;D
Great!  How do the arcs look with audio modulation?  Does the modulation increase branching?
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2022, 03:50:58 AM »
Quote
and it actually works!  wow  ;D
Great!  How do the arcs look with audio modulation?  Does the modulation increase branching?

Thanks. havent done much investigation yet on the arc side. just tested in 135vbus with 1~2 inch sparks. on tesla coil side, not all frequency(audio) have same sound amplitude(audibly) EVEN with signal generator having a constant output amplitude 5Vpk2pk. 1.4KHz~3.9KHz on my test.

currently looking  up a better square to triangle(or sine) converter circuit. 5v input square wave. I dont want to go the arduino+AD9833 route(too much coding for tones/melody maybe). not much of a coder anyway.

btw ive done couple ckt. for sine output melody. lowpass(RC) then amp -> output amplitude not constant, varies with freq. I just need something between 900Hz-5KHz. if only there was a converter with almost constant output amplitude 1KHz~5KHz(then Id be done).

 also with opamp integrator, but output just dies out. needs constant sq wave input.

anyways, that proves the concept. audio on QCW  ;)

update: ok. using the AD9833 dds, was not hard to code  :) here it is shown a '1KHz note'. output from dds is 0.6vpk. just need to add an amplifier at the end. at least with this one, im guaranted with constant amplitude output.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2022, 06:30:06 PM by Rafft »
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2022, 02:38:41 PM »
 welp

 here is a short run/test of my -musical- qcw of sorts. originally I had a melody that played notes of less than 1KHz. they dont sound well. so I just coded another test melody spanning between 1 and 5KHz just to check how it sounds. 150v bus only. all it lacks is a proper qcw melody(w/c I dont have  ;D)

/>
edit:
I noticed too much branching in the arcs. kinda looks like a regular drsstc ,Im guessing Im over-modulating this. will have to adjust the audio gain lower, and probably achieve more straighter arcs. back to hw mod

edit2:
now it plays. this resonator setup is not fit for 'musical' use. has high coupling resulting in racing arcs. only for low voltage use

/>

edit3:
and just a proof that my junky coil has reached more than x10 its secondary (4.88") length. even the arc tip is out of frame  ;). its tuned in the upper pole and Ive just tested a CBB81 for MMC. not sure if its even ideal for such purpose, but it works.

https://youtube.com/shorts/aY-SdQSxIV8?feature=share

Ive used a pixel counting app for android (imagemeter)



« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 05:17:17 PM by Rafft »
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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2022, 02:38:41 PM »

 


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