Author Topic: QCW questions  (Read 4996 times)

Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2022, 04:37:42 AM »
Quote
just curious, how did you test it to ~30A only? id imagine you also 'heat up' the igbt prior to testing
Test setup was nothing like normal IGBT use.  I biased Vge at 15Vdc (permanently on).  Discharged a 10.0uF capacitor through an inductor across collector-emitter.  Measured forward and reverse (diode) Vce during this L/C ring-down waveform.  That way Vce is never large, so doesn't saturate scope input amplifier when set to 1V/division.  Current measured by dV/dt across 10.0uF capacitor (actually two 5uF MKP capacitors in parallel that measure 10.00uF together).  Used four-wire connection to IGBTs to avoid connection resistance.  Testing is with single ring-down waveforms spaced out in time, so very little heating.  Current is adjusted by adjusting initial 10.0uF capacitor voltage.

(I already have circuitry around, both FET and TRIAC based, for discharging L+C circuits.  Mostly use these for testing inductors up to saturation current.  Can be done by manually touching two wires together.  That often requires several tries for each test to get a clean switch event without contact-bounce.)

For gate (input) capacitance, I connected collector and emitter to a 25Vdc supply and measured gate-to-emitter capacitance.  Includes gate-to-collector capacitance too since Vce is fixed.  Spec values are at 25Vce for this part.  Graph shows input capacitance as a function of Vce, so you can see what it is supposed to be (roughly) at 0Vce from the graph.

Your parts are measuring high input capacitance, opposite what my counterfeit parts measured.  There is a slower Magnachip part with higher capacitance, so that may be what your parts are.  Mine are likely some other non-Magnachip smaller die inside.  No idea how fast they switch.  That is harder to test.
David Knierim

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2022, 05:11:45 AM »
David

thanks for the test setup explanation.

Ive measured BT40T60 with Vce 21vdc(current limited) and with gate discharged.

attached also is screenshot of graph. is this the one to look up to? then 5nF is too high @21Vdc?

edit:
tested spare magna igbt. its about 4nF @21Vdc. so I guess the magna was still a bit better then? is 4nF way off with a genuine 60T65PES Cies=2.3nF?



« Last Edit: May 05, 2022, 05:22:21 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2022, 05:56:01 AM »
Quote
Ive measured BT40T60 with Vce 21vdc(current limited) and with gate discharged.
Not sure I'm understanding the bit about "current limited".  Usually, with 0Vge DC and a small AC voltage for capacitance measurement, there should be almost no collector current.  Usually <1ua.  Perhaps your meter is applying a larger voltage (and perhaps a voltage with a DC component) for capacitance measurement.  You could try testing with a larger (~0.1 to 1uF) capacitor in series with the meter lead, and a high-value resistor (1meg to 10meg) gate-to-emitter to force average Vge to be 0V.  Otherwise, I'm inclined to believe only the gate to emitter/collector shorted readings.
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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2022, 06:29:00 AM »
current regulated. its my CV CC power supply. I set it to 2mA only.

I have re-checked both igbts 60T65PES and 40T60 with 100nF(94nF actual) and 10meg

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #84 on: May 06, 2022, 02:54:44 AM »
Both still well higher than the 2327pF typical specification.  (Mine were ~1200pF, so lower rather than higher.)  That would roughly fit for the similar but slower Magnachip part.

Even 2mA shouldn't limit when feeding Vce at 0Vge. Either these IGBTs have high leakage current or gate swing from cap measurement is large or 2mA current limit is not precise.
David Knierim

Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #85 on: May 06, 2022, 08:54:52 AM »
yes I agree, that gate capacitance is high as per datasheet.

the 2mA setting in PS was to somehow protect the LC meter(previous test w/o 100nF&10meg).

anyways, I had a full refund with that 40T60. 1 of the 10 igbt has zero capacitance reading gate/emitter(Vce @21vdc). im guessing factory defect? or because it was sent w/o an anti-static packaging

also, Ive used a bnc cable connection for checking Iprim. its somewhat clean on scope(ch2), but gets spikes when I  make connection with fullbridge output(ch1)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 08:57:30 AM by Rafft »
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #86 on: May 07, 2022, 04:57:41 AM »
Quote
the 2mA setting in PS was to somehow protect the LC meter(previous test w/o 100nF&10meg).
Meter may have internal protection for applied voltage, to handle charged capacitors.  Doesn't hurt to be safe.
Have you verified that your PS is accurate at 2mA?  That is very low for most supplies.  Could easily be the supply not going above 21V by itself at such low current setting.

Quote
1 of the 10 igbt has zero capacitance reading gate/emitter(Vce @21vdc). im guessing factory defect? or because it was sent w/o an anti-static packaging
Likely a factory defect - bad bond wire.  Those are really cheap counterfeit parts to have such a gross defect.  Would not be caused by ESD.  Unless your meter reads 0 capacitance into a short circuit or low resistance.  (Most meters read over-range for short circuit capacitors.)  ESD damage is generally gate oxide punch-through causing gate-emitter conductivity.  (For SiC FETs, I've seen ~1ohm G-S after gate over-voltage event.  Still works as a FET if short Vgs pulses are applied with sufficient current to drive 1ohm load.)

Quote
also, Ive used a bnc cable connection for checking Iprim. its somewhat clean on scope(ch2), but gets spikes when I  make connection with fullbridge output(ch1)
Sounds like an issue with either internal scope crosstalk due to ground current or effects of imperfect shielding on coax.  Either cause can be improved by ferrites around the coax cable and/or scope probe cable (cable from scope to probe body).  Large ferrites with multiple turns are best.  I often use several turns around a ferrite E55 core set on my scope probes and/or coax cables even when using my fancy (but old) Tektronix TDS754.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 05:00:01 AM by davekni »
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #87 on: May 07, 2022, 06:52:29 AM »
the (kit)power supply I am using:
https://www.qsl.net/z33t/dc_0-30v_0-3A_eng.html

so I just set the 'current' pot to minimum, and checked if there is output voltage.yes there is.

ok my igbts are counterfiet, except the IRG im using in the buck switch.

my lcr meter shows. 0.00 reading with open leads. ill try using ferrites for the coax then. thanks
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Offline Rafft

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2022, 07:43:13 AM »
Quote
Sounds like an issue with either internal scope crosstalk due to ground current or effects of imperfect shielding on coax.   

David, I tried  :)
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Offline davekni

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2022, 06:43:31 PM »
Quote
David, I tried  :)
Looks like that is working well.

Quote
so I just set the 'current' pot to minimum, and checked if there is output voltage.yes there is.
Current limit accuracy (including temperature drift and change with output voltage) is going to be poor down at 2mA.  True for almost any supply capable of 1amp or more.  That power supply circuit powers U1 and other circuitry after current sense resistor R7 (0.47 ohms).  Also, 2mA is only 1mV across R7, well under sensing opamp U3's worst-case input offset voltage specification (+-6mV).

To test leakage current, I'd suggest feeding collector through 10k resistor.  Measure voltage before and after resistor to see how much current the IGBT is drawing.  If more than 40uA, that is a clear violation of a worst-case specified limit, so proof of counterfeit (or damaged) parts.  (Spec. is 40uA at 650V at 25degreesC.)
David Knierim

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Re: QCW questions
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2022, 06:43:31 PM »

 


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