Author Topic: Is feedback necessary?  (Read 4242 times)

Offline faraday

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Is feedback necessary?
« on: April 18, 2018, 04:59:26 PM »
Hi,
Is current feedback really necessary in a DRSSTC (or voltage FB in a SSTC)?  Or can it be run without any feedback by just hitting it with a fixed oscillator at the frequency that both secondary and primary are tuned to?

I understand that streamers will result in a lower secondary resonant frequency, and that feedback somewhat helps get around that.

And I get that having feedback provides the "kick" just at the right moment.  But, how important is it to have that kick just at the right moment (with FB) vs almost at the right moment (without FB)?

Will a coil run okay without it?


Offline TDAF

  • High Voltage Technician
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
  • Karma: +4/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Is feedback necessary?
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 05:59:41 PM »
The might run Ok(For an SSTC that is)
But, in a DRSSTC soft-switching is the reason why these IGBT's switch that kind of huge currents
Since, DRSSTCs are very dynamic systems
manual tuning just doesn't work
If the circuit is even slightly out of tune the results can be catastrophic as the IGBT's will then have to hard-switch

Offline Garyf

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 38
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Is feedback necessary?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 01:54:15 AM »
My drsstc runs ok from an oscillator substituted for the feedback ct. Its useful to see how the currents and voltages behave as you adjust the frequency. But you may want to do this at a reduced bus voltage to avoid hard switching stress. I start with the oscillator set to the primary resonance and adjust a little up and down from there. It works if you don't get too adventurous.

Offline Mads Barnkob

  • Administrator
  • Executive Board Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2278
  • Karma: +72/-0
  • Denmark
    • View Profile
    • Kaizer Power Electronics
Re: Is feedback necessary?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 08:48:56 AM »
The spark is a very dynamic load, varying RC depending on branch size, this means that the secondary circuit is never operating at the same resonant frequency. So you might have the primary and secondary circuits tuned perfectly to each other, but as soon at the load conditions change, its all over the place and you are hard-switching current, which will be fatal if you are relying on soft-switching currents higher than its peak rating. 
https://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk - Tesla coils, high voltage, pulse power, audio and general electronics
https://www.youtube.com/KaizerPowerElectronicsDk60/join - Please consider supporting the forum, websites and youtube channel!

Offline Steve Ward

  • High Voltage Enthusiast
  • *
  • Posts: 48
  • Karma: +14/-1
    • View Profile
Re: Is feedback necessary?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 03:06:22 AM »
A bit of DRSSTC history:

The guy that made the first "impressive" DRSSTC (and who coined the acronym) was Jimmy Hynes, and his coil never used feedback.  It was simply a microcontroller with a POT feeding into an ADC that would adjust the PWM output frequency to the IGBT gates, and he would fiddle the knob to get the biggest primary current and sparks.  His machine made ~8 feet of spark with some CM150s until it blew out the MMC capacitors, which was something like 2 series x 10 parallel of the 0.15uF 2kV CDE rolled caps that were so popular for spark gap coils at the time.  The caps did not last long at all when subject to AC voltages that were far in excess of their DC rating!  However, the IGBTs managed to put up with the abuse of >1000A peak and non-ideal switch timing.  I think one reason the "fixed" oscillator approach worked OK on this coil was because of the very low primary impedance and relatively low coupling coefficient (guessing it was about K=0.1).  These 2 things mean that 1) the "burst" length to make a good spark was short (<10 cycles) and 2) the change in primary resonance frequency due to spark loading is less severe.

Hard switching currents that exceed the "Safe Operating Area" (SOA) for the device can trigger immediate failure.  To save $$, many DRSSTCs push the IGBT current beyond the Switching SOA, in which case you really want to be sure your driver maintains correct switch timing near the zero crossing rather than somewhere near the peak.  However, it's fundamentally difficult to achieve both bad switch timing and huge resonant currents, because the resonant rise depends on the driving source to be near Fres.

High Voltage Forum

Re: Is feedback necessary?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2018, 03:06:22 AM »

 


* Recent Topics and Posts

post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
Today at 05:26:13 PM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
NyaaX_X
Today at 04:03:38 PM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
Today at 02:56:40 PM
post Re: DIY induction guns? (warning:long)
[Induction Launchers, Coil Guns and Rails guns]
Benbmw
Today at 06:17:15 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
Today at 05:46:07 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
MRMILSTAR
Today at 05:18:31 AM
post Re: IKY150N65EH7, is it good for DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
Today at 04:34:52 AM
post Re: How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
Today at 04:11:53 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
Today at 04:02:44 AM
post Re: 100kHz CM300 gate resistor choice
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
Today at 03:35:52 AM
post Re: How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
MRMILSTAR
April 17, 2024, 11:54:05 PM
post 100kHz CM300 gate resistor choice
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
April 17, 2024, 11:37:16 PM
post Re: Has anyone tried to build a TMT (extra coil) Tesla coil?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 17, 2024, 02:29:30 AM
post Re: Has anyone tried to build a TMT (extra coil) Tesla coil?
[General Chat]
MRMILSTAR
April 16, 2024, 11:56:12 PM
post Re: How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
klugesmith
April 16, 2024, 11:46:57 PM
post Re: How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Bobakman
April 16, 2024, 10:40:11 PM
post Has anyone tried to build a TMT (extra coil) Tesla coil?
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 16, 2024, 09:21:39 PM
post Re: Medium Drsstc question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 16, 2024, 08:04:16 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Benjamin Lockhart
April 16, 2024, 06:48:05 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 16, 2024, 06:18:40 PM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
April 16, 2024, 06:14:53 PM
post Re: 3D printed mini-slayer: world's weakest tesla coil
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 16, 2024, 05:44:44 PM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
MRMILSTAR
April 16, 2024, 03:12:12 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 16, 2024, 02:28:01 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
April 16, 2024, 01:56:26 PM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
April 16, 2024, 06:50:47 AM
post Re: IKY150N65EH7, is it good for DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Anders Mikkelsen
April 16, 2024, 04:57:47 AM
post Re: IKY150N65EH7, is it good for DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ethanwu0131
April 16, 2024, 03:40:53 AM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 16, 2024, 01:31:17 AM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 11:19:52 PM
post 3D printed mini-slayer: world's weakest tesla coil
[Solid State Tesla Coils (SSTC)]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 11:10:19 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
alan sailer
April 15, 2024, 11:04:19 PM
post Re: Ignitron trigger drive ideas?
[Capacitor Banks]
Twospoons
April 15, 2024, 11:02:05 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 10:57:59 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 10:55:46 PM
post Re: Return of Electronics Flea Market in "Silicon Valley"
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
klugesmith
April 15, 2024, 10:37:32 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
April 15, 2024, 10:05:00 PM
post Re: How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
MRMILSTAR
April 15, 2024, 09:28:50 PM
post Ignitron trigger drive ideas?
[Capacitor Banks]
klugesmith
April 15, 2024, 09:06:42 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 15, 2024, 08:46:32 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Benbmw
April 15, 2024, 08:38:39 PM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
sky-guided
April 15, 2024, 08:23:40 PM
post How to get a GE Yokogawa AB40 Sync Scope to rotate without a powerplant.
[Laboratories, Equipment and Tools]
Bobakman
April 15, 2024, 06:43:23 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 15, 2024, 06:29:10 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 05:21:53 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
April 15, 2024, 05:15:33 AM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
April 15, 2024, 04:07:54 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
davekni
April 15, 2024, 03:49:03 AM
post Re: Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
alan sailer
April 14, 2024, 09:46:30 PM
post Small-ish 3D printed SGTC via cheap ZVS flyback build, humbly asking a couple ?s
[Spark Gap Tesla Coils (SGTC)]
Michelle_
April 14, 2024, 07:31:00 PM
post Re: First DRSSTC SKM100
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Saattvik24
April 14, 2024, 02:26:19 PM
post Re: mg75q2ys40 IGBT
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 14, 2024, 07:20:54 AM
post Re: IKY150N65EH7, is it good for DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 14, 2024, 07:18:20 AM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 13, 2024, 06:46:40 AM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 13, 2024, 04:18:42 AM
post Re: Upper and Lower Explosive Limits on Confined Flammable Vapors at -79 C.
[General Chat]
alan sailer
April 13, 2024, 03:24:20 AM
post Re: Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
alan sailer
April 13, 2024, 03:20:46 AM
post Game changing tesla coil secondary winding suggestions
[General Chat]
Michelle_
April 13, 2024, 03:13:22 AM
post Re: Capacitor Blowout
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
lbattraw
April 12, 2024, 09:14:58 PM
post mg75q2ys40 IGBT
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
thedark
April 12, 2024, 08:40:18 PM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
April 12, 2024, 07:20:30 PM
post Re: Mosfet Buffer Stage Questions
[Beginners]
davekni
April 12, 2024, 07:12:43 PM
post IKY150N65EH7, is it good for DRSSTC
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
ethanwu0131
April 12, 2024, 04:47:33 PM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
April 12, 2024, 11:43:36 AM
post Mosfet Buffer Stage Questions
[Beginners]
Egg
April 12, 2024, 12:49:02 AM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
April 12, 2024, 12:41:16 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
davekni
April 12, 2024, 12:22:41 AM
post Re: Capacitor Blowout
[Sell / Buy / Trade]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 10:45:53 PM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
April 11, 2024, 07:39:30 PM
post Re: UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 11, 2024, 07:24:52 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
sky-guided
April 11, 2024, 06:09:30 PM
post UD 2.7 OCD LED stays on, no output during inital test
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Admiral Aaron Ravensdale
April 11, 2024, 12:55:16 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 03:40:00 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
sky-guided
April 11, 2024, 03:05:07 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 02:57:33 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 01:44:32 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 01:31:40 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 11, 2024, 01:11:00 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 12:58:52 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 11, 2024, 12:31:37 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
alan sailer
April 11, 2024, 12:30:21 AM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
alan sailer
April 10, 2024, 11:41:46 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Mads Barnkob
April 10, 2024, 11:33:32 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 10:41:33 PM
post Re: Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
MRMILSTAR
April 10, 2024, 10:31:31 PM
post Tesla coil safety questions, risk analysis quantified
[Beginners]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 09:56:35 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 08:59:26 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 10, 2024, 06:35:30 PM
post Re: Drsstc voltage spike question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 10, 2024, 05:35:14 PM
post Medium Drsstc question
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
unrealcrafter2
April 10, 2024, 03:07:02 PM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:42:12 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Michelle_
April 10, 2024, 03:41:04 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
sky-guided
April 10, 2024, 02:50:23 AM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Unrealeous
April 10, 2024, 01:32:17 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:26:29 AM
post Re: Plasma Torid - Class E Self Resonant Dual/Stereo - Plasma Torid Build
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
OmGigaTron
April 10, 2024, 01:18:35 AM
post Re: Big Coil Big Sparks
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
Mads Barnkob
April 09, 2024, 07:34:19 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
flyingperson23
April 09, 2024, 06:14:27 PM
post Re: CM400 Induction Heater
[Electronic Circuits]
markus
April 09, 2024, 06:08:53 PM
post Re: DRSSTC V1 using BSM1500
[Dual Resonant Solid State Tesla coils (DRSSTC)]
markus
April 09, 2024, 05:15:19 PM

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 
SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal