Author Topic: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice  (Read 1286 times)

Offline Martin hughes

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Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« on: June 06, 2020, 11:03:13 AM »
Hello. I’m new here so I hope this is the right place to ask. I’m trying to replicate an experiment with a Soviet made 6D6A electro-vacuum diode. The experiment appears in US patent 9,042,083B2. Kholoshenko et al.

The basic set-up is very simple a filament transformer is used to heat the filament. The cathode is connected to rectified mains voltage 310V via a current limiting alternative resistor And charged for 8hrs at 10mA.

The anode is cut off. The anode is replaced by a metal container filled with transformer oil and the diode is immersed in the oil such that the electrons enter the vacuum in the bulb but can’t reach the anode due to the insulating oil. As a result a voltage builds up to 28V giving a calculated capacitance of 10.2857 Farads.

Needless to say this is very interesting given the need for energy storage devices. The company developing the patent is freeltech.

My question is if I run the mains through a 1N4007 diode and a power resistor how do i fine tune the amps to 10mA? Is it a case of trial and error or is there a way to use a potentiometer given the high voltages involved. Also how best to attach the ammeter and what ammeter is best. To get an accurate reading? The equipment I have to work with is a variac, an isolation transformer, and a bench multimeter.  I already have the filament transformer, so just the main circuit is what I’m after.

Any help or advice welcome. And yes I am being careful with it.

Online davekni

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 08:19:44 PM »
You could purchase a regulated lab supply with adjustable current, or look up constant-current circuits.  But I'd suggest not trying to replicate a worthless patent.
David Knierim

Offline Twospoons

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2020, 12:53:54 AM »
I wouldn't bother.   If you look at the measurement methodology you will see there is a serious flaw - it is assumed that all charging current is stored during the charging phase. There is no accounting for the possibility of leakage, and the end result is a wildly erroneous capacitance calculation.  What they should have done is measure the time to discharge the capacitor into a fixed load, as there would be no external energy source to confound the measurements.

Offline Martin hughes

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2020, 10:37:09 AM »
I wouldn't bother.   If you look at the measurement methodology you will see there is a serious flaw - it is assumed that all charging current is stored during the charging phase. There is no accounting for the possibility of leakage, and the end result is a wildly erroneous capacitance calculation.  What they should have done is measure the time to discharge the capacitor into a fixed load, as there would be no external energy source to confound the measurements.

That’s an interesting possibility. I think that the leakage issue is dealt with by having the vacuum diode completely immersed in transformer oil though? The calculation is certainly worth taking a closer look at though. What were the specific parts of the calculation that you think are dodgy? How would you do the calculation? Is there a simple way to make a fixed load to discharge into that could verify the calculation? Thank in advance for any help.

But my initial question is about the practicalities of a simple circuit. It should only cost a few bob to put it together and end any speculation. This is why I am going to try to replicate the experiment and why I’m asking for advice on the simplest and cheapest implementation of a circuit that matches that described in the patent.

I hope that someone here can help me try and replicate the experiment with some advice on a circuit layout. I.e. a. Capacitor and a resistor in series, or just a resistor? Ammeter on the Ac or DC? Ammeter on the low or high side? I plan on having a Domestic power meter Plugged in to the wall socket to get total power consumed.

Offline Twospoons

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2020, 12:41:10 AM »
Dunking something in transformer oil in no way guarantees infinite resistance - thats a ridiculous assumption. And its the assumption that is the fatal flaw in the measurement method used by the patent.  The calculation that was used is theoretically correct, just the data they've used is dubious as there was no accounting for other current paths.

Measuring capacitance, even just getting an order of magnitude, is easily done with a fixed resistor and measuring the time for the voltage to fall by some fixed fraction (63% for the RC time constant).  Monitoring the shape of the curve is also important - a capacitor will show an exponential curve with a resistive load. Any other curve and what you have is not (only) a capacitor.

By all means replicate the experiment, but do the measurement in such a way as to eliminate errors from leakage current  i.e. check the discharge curve with no other energy sources in the circuit.

Its the same sort of thing that crops up in "free energy" and "over-unity" experiments, where the inventor thinks they've built some magic device - but all they've actually done is failed to measure everything correctly.
Experiment design is a difficult science.

Offline Martin hughes

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 08:52:43 AM »
Twospoons. Thanks again. That would be a good test to conduct.

I think I will ‘bother’ to do the experiment since it seems worth doing for the sake of scientific principle to ‘bother’. Things that sound too good to be true usually are too good to be true and I can see where those telling me to ‘not bother’ are coming from, but I have time to spare right now, and it won’t cost much to do, or really be that bothersome. So ‘bother’ I will. Haha.

So if one were to ‘bother’ would a simple half wave rectifier and power resister be an appropriate way to charge it or should I go for something more elaborate?

Cheers.

Offline Twospoons

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2020, 11:54:11 PM »
If it really is operating as a capacitor then you should, in theory, be able to charge it with practically anything.  Then measure the capacitance via discharge through a resistor as I've outlined.
A simple rectifier and resistor should work.

Offline petespaco

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2020, 12:53:31 AM »
What is an "alternative resistor"?

The whole thing sounds fishy to this old tube/ high vacuum guy.
The insulation value of transformer oil is high, maybe 2 to the 15th ohms, but not infinite, by the way.    wouldn't dry air, dry argon or a fine vacuum be better?

If that thing really IS going to store that much energy, then the charging current should be changing all the time, shouldn't it?
How is any one value of resistor going to supply a constant 10 ma?

If I were going to do anything with that idea, i'd just pick some value of resistor and watch the "charge" voltage across the tube.  When it rises to the supply voltage, that's all the "storage" you are going to get.

Pete Stanaitis
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Offline Martin hughes

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 01:10:51 PM »
Yes petespaco. What is an alternative resistor? I wondered the same thing. The bulbs arrived this morning. Hopefully I’ll have time to play about with them over them over the weekend. Yes I think there is something a bit to sketchy about the way the experiment is described in the patent. It’s my experience that they usually seem to miss out on details or give extraneous details to fog the issue so as to protect their ideas. This was why I was wondering about how to power the thing at a constant 10mA

The experiment describes using 310VDC with the diode voltage rising to 27V so I’m not sure what you are saying at the end? Anyway now the bulbs are here I can play around. But I don’t think that these bulbs are anything special I think that any old vacuum diodes might be substituted. The reason I’m sticking to the oil is that I want to try as much as I can to replicate what was described. But yes there may be other ways I’m not sure what Freel - the company looking to commercialise it use. The experiment is just Meant to be a proof of concept I think. The whole thing is very strange on paper which was why I thought I’d have a bash. Maybe things will become clearer once I mess about with some actual stuff.

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Re: Vacuum capacitor circuit advice
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2020, 01:10:51 PM »

 


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